From Burnout to Balance: Strategies for Recharging
In this episode of With Both Hands, we explore the often-repeated but rarely embodied idea of not pouring from an empty cup. Through honest conversation, Laura and Claire examine how motherhood and work are shaped by a culture that normalises exhaustion, and why this expectation ultimately leaves women depleted rather than fulfilled.
Expect reflections on burnout, capacity and the quiet warning signs that so many mothers miss until they are already running on empty. Drawing on personal experience, including Laura’s experience of burnout after the birth of her fourth child, the episode looks at what happens when self-care is consistently deprioritised, and how boundaries, support and asking for help can radically change the way we show up in our lives.
The conversation moves beyond surface-level self-care and questions a productivity-driven mindset that ties worth to output. This episode is an invitation to expand capacity without self-sacrifice, to redefine care as essential rather than indulgent, and to recognise that nurturing ourselves is foundational to supporting our families, our work, and our wider communities.
Transcript
Hi.
Speaker B:Welcome to both hands.
Speaker B:I'm Claire.
Speaker A:And I'm Laura.
Speaker B:And we are two mums who met on the Internet.
Speaker B:So today we are talking about empty cups and pouring into them.
Speaker B:I think that something that is really, really important and something that it is talked about, I think.
Speaker B:But probably from a perspective of the stereotype of the downtrodden, weary mother, which isn't quite the frame or the lens that we come at it from, is the idea of pouring from an empty cup.
Speaker B:And we want to talk about what happens when we try and pour from empty.
Speaker B:Ways that we can avoid that, ways that we, as mums and business owners fill our own cups and why that's so important for us and our families and our businesses and why we so often neglect that.
Speaker B:So, Laur, can you tell me about your cup?
Speaker A:Michael.
Speaker A:I feel like there's a lot, a lot of narrative about filling up our own cups, not pouring from him.
Speaker A:And I've come to learn that two things can be true.
Speaker A:One, we can fill up our own cups first, and two, we can actually increase the capacity of the cup.
Speaker A:And I feel like that's not discussed a lot.
Speaker A:It's always like, how do we refill it?
Speaker A:Because it's always being drained, but there's also some way to expand the capacity so you don't need to refill it up as often.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think that is something I would like to touch on today because that's something I definitely learned how to do.
Speaker A:But before we get into that, I want to tell you about the time where I was empty and what that felt like for me.
Speaker A:Because I think at the time, I don't think I knew I was empty.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think I was still pretending.
Speaker A:I'm not even pretending.
Speaker A:I think I was trying to hold it together because I had to.
Speaker A:Like, I couldn't not be okay, so I just carried on running on the hamster wheel.
Speaker A:Yeah, I just want to put a bit of a light on that because there might be some listeners listening that resonate and realize that, oh, my cut's pretty low.
Speaker A:And I hadn't realized because I think until.
Speaker A:Yeah, until someone points out to you, sometimes you don't know.
Speaker A:I want to start there, if that's okay.
Speaker A:There's probably lots of examples, but the one that always stays in my mind and it's because it's the one that probably was my rock bottom moment that meant that I had to make some drastic changes was after my fourth baby.
Speaker A:There's definitely some time between one and two as well.
Speaker A:I found going from one baby to two babies, particularly challenging, but there was a lot happening there.
Speaker A:I was dealing with grief, I was dealing with a lot of family drama.
Speaker A:So there was, there was more there than just going from one to two.
Speaker A:But I do think I found one to two particularly challenging.
Speaker A:And then my fourth baby, so going from three to four, I found that hard.
Speaker A:And I think that was also environmental due to the fact that my youngest is a pandemic baby.
Speaker A:So there was a lot of structure and scaffolding that maybe I would normally have had that I didn't.
Speaker A:And I also chose, I was sometimes can still fall into a prolific workaholic.
Speaker A:And an opportunity came up when my youngest was like four months old for me to go for a new role, which meant a much higher income, more responsibility, but I could work from home.
Speaker A:And I kind of jumped at the chance because it all made sense, but then it didn't.
Speaker A:Then it didn't make sense, actually.
Speaker A:I wasn't fully recovered from birthing a baby.
Speaker A:I was still breastfeeding, which takes a lot out on your body.
Speaker A:And now I was in this really high stress work thing that I couldn't escape from because I was doing it from my home, because it was a work from home gig.
Speaker A:And that concoction, plus three children that were in and out of isolation and bubbles popping and whatever other nonsense was going on put a lot on me.
Speaker A:And ultimately it resulted in me having daily panic attacks.
Speaker A:But even before the daily panic attacks, they were signs I wasn't sleeping very well.
Speaker A:I was waking up in the middle of the night thinking about my to do list, thinking about the washing that needed to be done, thinking about the fact that the baby might wake up in the next half an hour, but the baby wasn't awake yet.
Speaker A:Constant state of something's going to happen so I might as well be awake for it, I might as well be ready for it kind of, kind of state.
Speaker A:And that, that was when, yeah, when I realized I was reaching burnout pretty rapidly.
Speaker A:And I did.
Speaker A:And I ended up off work for quite some time while I dealt with the severe anxiety I was living with.
Speaker A:One of the first things that happened after I got myself a coach.
Speaker A:And one of my first remedies, I suppose for want of a better word, was to stand outside for five minutes once a day.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that felt like a lot, like I struggled to do that.
Speaker A:And that was the first thing I had to do.
Speaker A:Go and stand outside in your own garden for five minutes on your own once a day.
Speaker A:And yeah, that was the Beginning of me learning that I cannot be the best mum.
Speaker A:Because back then as well, like, my kids were getting irritable me.
Speaker A:Like, they try and talk to me and I'd ignore them, bite the head off, tell them I was too busy, I wasn't where I wanted to be as a mother.
Speaker A:And I probably remember it worse than it was.
Speaker A:Like, my kids probably wouldn't say that's what I was like, this is.
Speaker A:This is me talking.
Speaker A:But it didn't feel like from a value.
Speaker A:Like, we speak a lot about values.
Speaker A:I didn't feel like I was living my values.
Speaker A:I was allowing.
Speaker A:Allowing something else to control my life and it didn't feel nice in my body and I needed to start taking control back.
Speaker A:And yeah, it started with five minutes in my garden and it sounds insane to me now because of what I now have capacity to do.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that was really hard.
Speaker A:Like, I remember it being really, really difficult to just stand there.
Speaker A:Like, the thoughts of, what are you doing?
Speaker A:This isn't helpful.
Speaker A:The washing could be being done and, like, really having to stand there and be with those thoughts whilst staring at a sky and doing nothing.
Speaker A:But it refilled my cup.
Speaker A:I always went in feeling a lot calmer than when I went out.
Speaker A:And yeah, we built from there.
Speaker B:So obviously that situation, there's a lot of pieces there that led to that outcome, like, and some of those are completely beyond your control.
Speaker B:For example, the global pandemic, you know, my oldest is a pandemic baby too.
Speaker B:And it was a crazy time, like, for everybody.
Speaker B:I don't think anyone's really processed that yet.
Speaker A:Nobody talks about it actually.
Speaker A:Like, we all say, oh, yeah, that time.
Speaker A:And then we move the conversation on very quickly.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Nobody, I don't think, has really had the chance to process what that was, what that crazy thing was.
Speaker B:And obviously taking that job sounds perfect for the situation.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So you're probably always going to take that job.
Speaker B:There was really no outcome in which he didn't choose that path.
Speaker B:So do you think that there was anything that.
Speaker B:From.
Speaker B:From your lens now, from what you know now, was there something that could have gone differently that would have led to you not getting to that place?
Speaker A:Yes, there were signs.
Speaker A:They were my friends in a particular girls WhatsApp.
Speaker A:That was like, laura, this isn't healthy.
Speaker A:You need to.
Speaker A:And I was just ignoring them.
Speaker A:I was like, but I have to, I have to, I have to.
Speaker A:It's my job, it's what I'm paid to do.
Speaker A:Like, I couldn't see past that.
Speaker A:Definitely Work related.
Speaker A:But it was also because of how much of my self worth was wrapped into my work and how work could always kind of be my safe place.
Speaker A:Like when things got tough on the, like in my personal life, I always went to work.
Speaker A:It was like my safe haven.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so I was trying to do that.
Speaker A:But when you're trying to outrun a global pandemic in work and you've just had a baby, it was four months old, not sleeping.
Speaker A:It was just a recipe for disaster.
Speaker A:Like, when I look back, I was like, what on earth are you doing?
Speaker A:And if I was my daughter or if I was one of my sons, I would have really sat them down and be like, look, babe.
Speaker A:Like, no.
Speaker A:Like, no money's worth that.
Speaker A:No recognition, no climbing the corporate ladder is worth that.
Speaker A:But I couldn't see it at the time.
Speaker A:I don't know whether I needed it in some way, shape or form.
Speaker A:Like they always say you need to hit rock bottom to be able to build back up.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And part of me thinks, like, maybe that needed to happen for me to now be where I'm at now.
Speaker A:But that doesn't mean that I advocate for everyone to hit rock bottom.
Speaker A:Like, if you can get there without doing that, great.
Speaker A:Because it really wasn't a nice place to be at.
Speaker A:But maybe for me, I needed to get there first.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I don't know the answer, but there was definitely people ringing alarm bells and me just ignoring them until I couldn't of it because I couldn't breathe.
Speaker A:I've had a bit of panic before, but these ones in particular, I was like, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm gonna die early.
Speaker A:And that's not okay because of how severe they were at the time.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think, I don't think there's.
Speaker A:I think it was my coping mechanism, but it wasn't a healthy coping mechanism.
Speaker A:And one of the things that I'm trying to do now with my children already is teach them healthy coping mechanisms, teaching them how to fill their cup healthily.
Speaker A:One of the things, like, I found work increased my capacity to be a nice mother.
Speaker A:Like, if I went to work three hours a day, I'd come home and feel like I could be my best self to my kids if I didn't work.
Speaker A:So say it was manual leave.
Speaker A:I found it difficult to be the mother because I found work, refilled my cup.
Speaker A:It was very unlike now.
Speaker A:I know it was a very healthy relationship, but that is what I had at the time.
Speaker A:I've now learned how to Refill my cup in much healthier ways, which means that I actually have more capacity for work and home without having severe daily panic attacks.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker B:I think that a lot of people probably are on the path that you're talking about without realizing, because I think that that path is actually how our society is set up to operate.
Speaker B:We are all encouraged to be on that path to a certain extent, I think.
Speaker B:And I think that's why there's so much backlash at the moment around conversations about having families.
Speaker B:You know, there's been talk about falling birth rates, there's been suggestions from politicians that we should all just have more babies.
Speaker B:And obviously the conversation and the backlash to that is how are we doing that?
Speaker B:Because we've created a situation in which most families can't survive on a single income.
Speaker B:Both parents have to work.
Speaker B:In a lot of cases, both parents want to work.
Speaker B:Childcare situation is dire.
Speaker B:People don't have support networks, communities, villages, family living close by to help with childcare.
Speaker B:How so?
Speaker B:We've created a situation, I think, in which a lot of people inhabit this space where they're probably on the way to, if not at some version of what you're talking about.
Speaker B:So I guess the question is how do we offset that?
Speaker B:We can't restructure society, so how can we as mothers and as women running businesses or women working in businesses, how can we offset that to create a better space for us to inhabit?
Speaker A:Yeah, such a good question.
Speaker A:And I agree, actually.
Speaker A:I think we are put on the productivity path from day dot, like it starts at school.
Speaker A:GDP is based on productivity.
Speaker A:It's a productivity of the nation.
Speaker A:That's what tells us whether our country is economic healthy.
Speaker A:So I think we're on that path.
Speaker A:I do think there's an alternative, but I think it needs radical self leadership and radical self advocacy.
Speaker A:It means kind of not working for the corporates and setting up for yourself and working out your own rhythm of your life.
Speaker A:That doesn't come easily.
Speaker A:Like it's not a really easy switch on, switch off.
Speaker A: ust been discussing, that was: Speaker A: We're now in: Speaker A:I'm just about feeling secure again in my decisions.
Speaker A:It's been a bloody long road.
Speaker A:My panic attacks ended a long time ago.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But there will always be some and it's strong boundaries.
Speaker A:And for me in particular, it was investing heavily in therapy and coaching because they kind of gave me the permission to say no.
Speaker A:And I needed that permission to say no.
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:I don't think I'd have ever got there without their leadership saying no.
Speaker A:You are an adult and you can say no.
Speaker A:You're allowed to say no.
Speaker A:They can't sack you saying no.
Speaker A:And I don't think I.
Speaker A:Well, I didn't.
Speaker A:I didn't know that before.
Speaker A:I was heavily coached and in therapy to understand that.
Speaker B:Okay, so I think the boundaries piece is super important because self advocacy is huge.
Speaker B:Boundary setting is huge.
Speaker B:We're not raised to be particularly good with boundaries in this comp in this country.
Speaker B:So I think that's a skill which people can apply to really good effect.
Speaker B:I want to make sure we're talking about tools that people can apply for themselves because I'm aware that we've both had therapy.
Speaker B:I'm aware that that is a privileged position to be in.
Speaker B:Not everybody can access therapy or coaching, even though it's an amazing tool and obviously is hugely, hugely helpful in moving you to that space.
Speaker B:So I think boundaries particularly are really, really helpful.
Speaker B:The way that I think I use boundaries to make sure that I can protect my cup is that I have learned to get a lot better at saying no.
Speaker B:And this is huge for me as a recovered yes girl.
Speaker B:Learning to say no to things which do not directly serve either my peace or the peace of my family, or achieve an objective that genuinely aligns with my value or my vision for my life.
Speaker B:That's been huge.
Speaker B:So, for example, that includes shedding some weight of expectation.
Speaker B:It sometimes means saying no to family events because if we're invited to a family event, which I know isn't going to be particularly child friendly if it takes place over nap time or past bedtime.
Speaker B:And I know that the situation in reality, while it might sound very nice, is going to be me trying to corral two overtired children in a space in which their behavior is not tolerated.
Speaker B:And I'm somehow expected to control behavior, which is an inevitable outcome of the fact that I've put them in a situation where they're overtired and overstimulated, I'm going to say no to that situation.
Speaker B:And that is something that's been hard to learn.
Speaker B:But what that allows me to do is to create more space.
Speaker B:And we're talking about capacity and increased capacity.
Speaker B:I think that that applies to nervous system capacity, but also it can.
Speaker B:It can also also include capacity in your actual schedule.
Speaker B:Create some space, create some free time.
Speaker B:Because we are absolutely just jam packed.
Speaker B:And again, we're encouraged to be busy all the time.
Speaker B:We're told that kids have to Constantly have activities and be entertained and be, you know, doing something extracurricular that's going to grow their brains or, you know, invest in them in some way.
Speaker B:And actually what kids I find, find my kids really love is just some free time just being able to free play, unstructured play.
Speaker B:They love being at home.
Speaker B:So if I have the choice between those two things, I've learned to try and put that boundary in place and say, actually, no, we're not going to attend that.
Speaker B:Thank you for the invite.
Speaker B:And sometimes we'll just stay home instead and do very little.
Speaker B:And I found that's one way that I can really find.
Speaker B:Find some breathing space in the schedule.
Speaker A:Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker A:Mine was definitely boundaries.
Speaker A:I just think for me personally, I wouldn't have ever got the confidence to.
Speaker A:To do that without getting external support just because of how far down that path I was.
Speaker A:And my first therapist was nhs.
Speaker A:So that's like my first initial is just very long waiting lists.
Speaker A:But I think the no and the boundaries, like, it's not necessarily yes boundaries, it's always the no boundaries.
Speaker A:And sometimes it's saying no to things you do actually want to do that refills your cups.
Speaker A:It's not always that, oh, I don't like the sound of that as a no.
Speaker A:It's actually I have this really exciting thing on this day and then someone else asked me if this exciting thing the day after.
Speaker A:But I don't have capacity for both.
Speaker A:So I have to pick between one or the other.
Speaker A:And they're the harder nose, but they're really important for that, for that cook to stay full.
Speaker A:One thing we did in particular, coming out of that as well, obviously I hit rock bottom.
Speaker A:But my family as a whole wasn't okay in that period either.
Speaker A:I had numerous children, really struggling.
Speaker A:Nobody was diagnosed at that point.
Speaker A:Since that, five members of my family have been diagnosed autistic.
Speaker A:So you can imagine what we're dealing with.
Speaker A:We were dealing with needs that we didn't fully understand.
Speaker A:We'd had all the scaffolding taken from us that we were using that we didn't even realize we were using.
Speaker A:Like, there were certain things that we did in our weeks that we no longer could, but we didn't actually understand what they were actually providing to our family until they weren't there.
Speaker A:Like, my elder swam five times a week.
Speaker A:He then couldn't swim.
Speaker A:But we didn't realize that was really regulating his nervous system and that wasn't there anymore.
Speaker A:His nervous system was not regulated.
Speaker A:So, yeah, there was Lots of things that happened in that period, but it also made us assess lots of other things as well.
Speaker A:So as much as I stood in the garden for five minutes once a day, there was other things that we didn't put back in.
Speaker A:It was more.
Speaker A:I think the pandemic stripped a lot from our lives and we didn't add it back in.
Speaker A:There was family stuff that we did every week without fail that didn't go back in.
Speaker A:We realized that was just putting stress on everybody.
Speaker A:That wasn't required.
Speaker A:The hobbies after school stopped.
Speaker A:Everyone just got.
Speaker A:Gets to do one hobby now at a weekend.
Speaker A:Like, they can't do it.
Speaker A:They don't have.
Speaker A:My children do not have the capacities to do a full day at school and then go to another social thing after school.
Speaker A:It just creates burnout.
Speaker A:So they don't do that anymore.
Speaker A:There's things that we've said no to, and then there's.
Speaker A:There's things that we do want to do that we still have to say no to.
Speaker A:And sometimes that does make your world feel really small.
Speaker A:But that kind of is what it is when you're dealing with additional needs in a society.
Speaker A:That's not so for that either.
Speaker A:And we've made peace with it because we feel as a family, like our family is so much calmer and there's so much more dancing and laughter and it's not all crying in a corner, which at one point was.
Speaker A:So, yeah, definitely, I'd say boundaries and a no.
Speaker A:And then I also think there is a bit of ourselves and seeing ourselves as humans and not see.
Speaker A:And by us, I mean the parents of the family that we are.
Speaker A:That we are humans in our own right, and we're not just parents and we have our own needs and we have to tend to ourselves.
Speaker A:And I think there was a time in my life where I was waiting for someone to come and tend to me, when actually that's not going to happen.
Speaker A:No one's coming to rescue you.
Speaker A:You have to rescue yourself.
Speaker A:And really starting to come to terms with that, like, okay, no one's coming to water me, therefore I need to water myself.
Speaker A:And how do I do that?
Speaker A:Yeah, the realization I got the no.
Speaker B:One'S coming thing, I feel is such a huge rite of passage and nobody talks about it.
Speaker B:And I think it's so.
Speaker B:It's such a huge, like, step that you have to overcome.
Speaker B:I feel like I was brought up to.
Speaker B:I don't know if you feel this too, but I feel like there was always an expectation that.
Speaker B:That my husband My partner or whatever would be this person who would come and there was an element of rescue there, do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, this person is going to meet my needs and make me happy.
Speaker B:And you know, there's an element of rescue in that.
Speaker B:And that's the, that's, that's not, not really how it works.
Speaker B:And I feel like those of us that were raised on Disney films and Cosmopolitan magazine have really been sold a fucking lie, you know, like, and then you get to be an adult and you're in your 30s and you're married and you're like, there's no shining night, guys, what's going on?
Speaker A:What do you mean I have to.
Speaker B:Meet my own niece?
Speaker A:All of that.
Speaker A:And then what is also really interesting for me is meet my onies quite well.
Speaker A:Now there is still areas of improvement, but people look at my life like.
Speaker B:How do you do that?
Speaker A:How do you get away with that?
Speaker A:What do your kids feel?
Speaker A:What does like so and so feel about some of the decisions I make?
Speaker A:And I find that so curious as well.
Speaker A:So I'm like, not only, not only are we fed a line that someone's coming to save us, but when we save ourselves, society has something to say about it like, oh, how dare you actually rescue yourself.
Speaker A:You need to stay there and wait to be rescued even though no one's coming for you.
Speaker B:Get back in your tower.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's so unhelpful.
Speaker B:And it puts so much pressure like on a relationship as well when you expect the other person.
Speaker B:This works both ways.
Speaker B:This isn't just women.
Speaker B:When you expect another person to fill your cup for you, anyone else in any relationship, romantic or otherwise, you're onto a loser and it's putting too much pressure on that person to be everything to you when you have to be self serving in that way.
Speaker B:And I think that again, that narrative results in women in general and mothers in particular feeling this insane level of guilt around pouring into our own cup and making sure that we have what we need for ourselves.
Speaker B:Which is crazy when you think about it.
Speaker A:It's still crazy.
Speaker A:And I think the caveat to that is children.
Speaker A:And by children I mean actual children.
Speaker A:So not adult children, but actual children.
Speaker A:They do need us as parents to meet their needs.
Speaker A:It's, it's part of a child.
Speaker A:And I do think in relationships we meet each other's needs, but it's not all our needs.
Speaker A:Like as a dependent, yes, it is our job to meet all their needs, but that doesn't mean that they have to be happy and content all the time.
Speaker A:Meeting their needs means holding them in all their emotions, including frustration, anger, disappointment.
Speaker A:I think I didn't know that.
Speaker A:So when I was trying to meet my children's needs in, what I thought it was was to make sure my children were happy all the time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And actually that's not true.
Speaker A:That isn't what meeting a child's needs is.
Speaker A:It's not to keep them constantly happy and satisfied and calm.
Speaker A:It's actually meeting them where they're at in whatever dilemma they're in and being with them in that.
Speaker A:Not trying to push them out of it, not trying to cover it up, not trying to push it under the carpet.
Speaker A:But actually like, okay, this is.
Speaker A:Let's sit in this a minute together.
Speaker A:You're not alone.
Speaker A:And then, right, how are we moving forward?
Speaker A:And that teaches them how to save themselves eventually.
Speaker A:But they can't do that instantly.
Speaker A:They need it modeling and they need seeing.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I think that was a big lesson for me.
Speaker A:Like meeting my kids needs does not mean that every need on a whim at every hour, all the time.
Speaker A:Which I think is what society tells us mothers is, I think.
Speaker A:Well, I definitely had that belief anyway.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of people do.
Speaker B:And I think that that is what society leads us to believe.
Speaker B:And I think that a lot of people operate on that basis and that I think that is a huge thing pushing people towards burnout.
Speaker B:Because you cannot make your child happy all the time because they're human.
Speaker A:We're human.
Speaker B:But here's the thing, and this is why this conversation is so important.
Speaker B:You cannot hold that space for a child when you yourself are empty.
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker B:You cannot hold that.
Speaker B:And I find I see that so instantaneously.
Speaker B:If I'm depleted and if I haven't poured into myself and I've neglected that, I am snappy and I'm impatient and I am quick to be fed up and I'm less engaged with play because I don't feel like it.
Speaker B:And I'm distracted and I'm not present because I'm thinking about all the things I have to do.
Speaker B:And I'm so tired and you know, and it snowballs quite quickly.
Speaker B:Whereas like you say, the hard reset I found too, can be something as simple as standing outside for five minutes in the fresh air and just letting a little bit of sunshine on your face.
Speaker A:Or rain or rain or snow.
Speaker B:Doesn't really matter.
Speaker B:Weather, outsideness, outside weather on your face.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Put a blocker app on your phone and go outside and feel the weather on your face just for five minutes.
Speaker A:It sounds so simple.
Speaker A:But sometimes it's the hardest thing to do, particularly when you are depleted.
Speaker A:And I still get there.
Speaker A:Like, I'm not this evangelical being.
Speaker A:I would feel a lot better if I just went outside.
Speaker A:So instead I just sit and stare at the outside and don't actually go outside because actually I want to feel moody all day.
Speaker B:I'm just gonna wallow in this.
Speaker A:It happens often, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker A:The difference is when you can spot your doing it and go, for God's sake, law, come on now, snap out of it.
Speaker A:Versus it being six months straight of that and it leading into anxiety and leading into panic attacks and leading into everything else.
Speaker A:The trick is to try and spot it as early as possible and then trying to get out of it.
Speaker A:And sometimes I don't.
Speaker A:Sometimes there is weeks go by, I'm like, I'm still in this funk.
Speaker A:You usually around my luteal phase.
Speaker A:Luteal phase is hard for me to do my basic needs.
Speaker A:Like, I find it really difficult.
Speaker A:And then other parts of my cycle, I find it much easier to do the things that make me feel good and keep me feeling great.
Speaker A:Luteal phase just fucks me over every month without a fail.
Speaker A:I think the simplest things are the hardest things, but I also think there's some.
Speaker A:Once you do them more regularly, the other things come like.
Speaker A:Like one thing I always do for myself is Pilates on a Saturday morning because I find parenting my children all day tricky.
Speaker A:Again, I've got multiple needs, multiple children, multiple age group.
Speaker A:And the more days is hard work navigating all their emotions.
Speaker A:So I make sure I start my weekends with an hour at Pilates.
Speaker A:It's an hour for me.
Speaker A:I'm moving my body, I'm getting in my body.
Speaker A:It then expands that cup.
Speaker A:So this is where I say, like, it doesn't refill my cup.
Speaker A:It actually makes my cup bigger so I could hold more plot is first thing.
Speaker A:Saturday morning does that for me.
Speaker A:And the weekends that I don't do it, I really feel the difference in the way I show up as a parent.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that is one thing.
Speaker A:Or I lift weights or.
Speaker A:So I used to do park run as well.
Speaker A:I used to do park run until I got hung up on the numbers.
Speaker A:Data is always an issue for me.
Speaker A:I prefer things that aren't being tracked.
Speaker B:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah, Pilates is it for me at the minute, but it might change in the future.
Speaker A:And lifting Weights, like lifting weights is a big thing.
Speaker A:There's studies like actual strength training is good for us as women to keep our bones healthy.
Speaker A:Also releases quite a lot of hormones and endorphins, but it also make sure that we're strong enough to run after our kids when we're 80, which is what I train for.
Speaker A:So strength training as well as getting outside Pilates, they're like my core things that need to be in a week for me to kind of stay on an even keel.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think movement, I, I, yeah, I run.
Speaker B:So movement outside for sure.
Speaker B:Running is one of my favorite things to do.
Speaker B:I don't track, I don't do park run or anything.
Speaker B:I just put headphones in and go off by myself.
Speaker B:Run.
Speaker B:I can't stand running with other people.
Speaker B:Don't want to talk to you, don't want to engage with anyone else.
Speaker B:Literally just want to be completely by myself.
Speaker A:I am in training to get back running as well.
Speaker A:It's been a good six months now.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:I used to run, not professionally, like just every now and again, but my last baby messed my hips up and I've not managed to get the strength back.
Speaker A:However, I'd think running outside, particularly when it's raining, is when I feel the most alive.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's gorgeous.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love it.
Speaker B:I think that's a really good one if you're able to.
Speaker B:Or a walk if you're not, is just as good.
Speaker B:But yeah, certainly movement, some kind of sweat is always good.
Speaker B:I think that the really what it comes down to is those foundational stones, isn't it?
Speaker B:When we talk about capacity and we talk about capacity expansion, I think actually in a lot of cases, myself included, I think it's very easy for mothers to get to a point where you're actually not even meeting the basics.
Speaker B:And I've found this definitely this time around with my second baby, the postpartum period, I found myself really depleted.
Speaker B:Like after 2 years of breastfeeding and 43 weeks of pregnancy, I can recognize where I just haven't put enough into those really basic foundation stones of pouring into myself physically.
Speaker B:So like making sure I have breakfast.
Speaker B:And this is a really common one, you know, this is a common trope.
Speaker B:Like it getting to 2 o' clock in the afternoon and realizing that you've eaten leftover toast crusts and a large coffee and that's all you've put in your body all day.
Speaker B:And then you wonder why you're irritable and have a headache and are exhausted.
Speaker B:So fat and protein first thing that is for me, that sets me up for the day.
Speaker B:And even if I've had a really bad broken night's sleep with the baby, if I make sure that I have fat and protein first thing, and a big drink of water, then I can feel the energy surge is different.
Speaker B:I can feel that even if I am technically sleep deprived, I'm not as exhausted.
Speaker B:So just really basic stuff like that, making sure that you have a shower.
Speaker B:I shower with the baby because apparently that's the only way I can get it done some days.
Speaker B:So now that she's big enough to sit up, I mean, she's two now, but I've done this for.
Speaker B:From the minute she was able to sit up on her own, I just sit her in the bath and give her some bath toys and put the plug in so she's got a bit of water to splash in.
Speaker B:And then that's how I shower.
Speaker B:It's stuff like that that can go out the window.
Speaker B:And then we start feeling like raccoons and then we really start.
Speaker B:Then you're on that slope down to being in a bit of a bad place.
Speaker B:So I feel like those really simple foundation stones are so important just to build them into your day.
Speaker B:Figure out how to do it with the baby or with the kids, if you can.
Speaker B:I'm talking littles here, you know, not with the teenagers.
Speaker B:Not with the teenagers.
Speaker B:Don't shower with the teenagers.
Speaker A:Frowned upon.
Speaker B:They will freak.
Speaker B:It's something that is so simple and straightforward and if it's not in place, everything else goes out the window.
Speaker B:You can talk about expanding nervous system capacity and regulating and all this stuff, but if your physical body is not nourished at a basic level, you're not going to be able to hold capacity for anything else, I find.
Speaker A:I totally agree.
Speaker A:I find fueling difficult.
Speaker A:I think this comes back to the life of being super productive.
Speaker A:And we were taught.
Speaker A:Well, I was taught food is bad from a very young age, actually.
Speaker A:And I was never taught that food was fuel, really.
Speaker A:Also was taught that work is everything.
Speaker A:So taking a lunch break was frowned upon in corporate culture.
Speaker A:So, yeah, fueling, but taking time to eat it, not just throwing it down your neck, like, particularly breakfast.
Speaker A:Like, I always take time with breakfast.
Speaker A:I also, I always post.
Speaker A:Well, not always, but I post on my social media quite often, which has loads of people like, oh, same breakfast.
Speaker A:Yes, same breakfast.
Speaker A:I have yogurt, I have strawberries, I have seeds, and I have a bit of manuka honey.
Speaker A:And the reason it's the same every day is because I don't want to have to make a decision.
Speaker A:So if it's.
Speaker A:It's easy for me.
Speaker A:I know exactly what I'm eating.
Speaker B:Yeah, remove that decision from your day.
Speaker A:I don't need to make a decision.
Speaker A:So it's always the same breakfast and then.
Speaker A:Yeah, my, mine's my skincare routine.
Speaker A:More than a full shower.
Speaker A:I tend to have a bath in the evenings, but in the morning, if I haven't done my skincare, I feel like a raccoon.
Speaker A:So making sure that my skincare is done and then getting dressed for the day even when you don't feel like it.
Speaker A:I think that we've just been through vomit city in our house and when you've got sick kids and they're not really getting dressed, sometimes it's easy to stay in your dramas because you're not going out anyway.
Speaker A:But that can lead to feeling like caged animals and I hate feeling trapped.
Speaker A:We've had this discussion before, so I found just getting dressed and then if I.
Speaker A:If the need for me to leave the house was there, I could easily go and do it.
Speaker A:That is definitely, yeah, getting dressed, getting ready for the day and it, it sounds so, like I said, it sounds so simple and sometimes it's the hardest thing to do.
Speaker A:The simple things.
Speaker A:And these simple things for me, like one of the big things that I do, I think that have really transformed my life and this comes with the privilege of having an excellent husband but also having older kids.
Speaker A:So if you're still in the trenches of baby and Todd the hood, this probably isn't for you.
Speaker A:But those of you who aren't but maybe have never really taken time for yourself, I would invite you to explore this.
Speaker A:But I try and do at least one trip a year on my own somewhere for at least a week and this really helps me deeply replenish what I've lost in parenting and running a business.
Speaker A:And yeah, I meet some incredible women on those trips.
Speaker A:But I think that for me is something when I can't do it on a day to day basis.
Speaker A:Sometimes I do get towards burnout and sometimes I think that is society that we live in and the career I've chosen.
Speaker A:So I particularly enjoy just going away for a week and just being in nature on my own without having to be a mum and ideally with someone else deciding what I'm doing on a day to day basis.
Speaker A:So a retreat or whatever.
Speaker A:So someone else is deciding what I'm eating and where I'm going again.
Speaker A:So I don't have any decisions to make that replenishes me for the year.
Speaker A:But it is a.
Speaker A:It started with five minutes in the garden.
Speaker A:Like I didn't get to this level of being able to refill my cup in one decision.
Speaker A:It was lots and lots of tiny decisions moving forward over the space of five years.
Speaker B:I think that that leans into kind of the next tier of this, which I think is being able to honor yourself outside of the roles you fill.
Speaker B:So once those basics are kind of under control, once we learn how to refill our capacity, expand our capacity at that basic level to not become overwhelmed, to not approach burnout, to be able to function as the mothers and as the people in business that we want to be in alignment with what we value.
Speaker B:I think the next piece then is what you're talking about with the retreats and being able to take those trips.
Speaker B:It's allowing space for the person that you are outside of the roles you fill, outside of your business, outside of being a mother.
Speaker B:Just taking some time back to just be you and to do something which specifically is going to fill your cup on a very core level.
Speaker B:Who you are as a person, not who you are within all these roles and all these things you have to do.
Speaker B:And I think that that's probably the next step on from.
Speaker B:From what we're talking about.
Speaker A:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker A:And it's a process.
Speaker A:I don't think you can go from nothing to that.
Speaker A:I don't think I would have been able to.
Speaker A:I don't think I'd recommend it.
Speaker A:I think it's lots of incremental small steps and learning what you need first.
Speaker A:Because maybe you don't need a week.
Speaker A:Maybe that would be far too much for you and you'd be like, I'm lost.
Speaker A:But for me because of how much I give on a day to day basis and just the kind of person I am and my personality, that deep rest is something that can fills my cup up, expands my capacity which means I can run for the next 12 months without needing too much into my weeks.
Speaker A:I think everyone's individual and.
Speaker A:But I just want to defunct the idea that we have to give our all all the time.
Speaker A:Like because that's just a recipe for actual disaster.
Speaker B:Yeah, 100%.
Speaker B:And I think there should still be space for us to be ourselves within all these different roles that we inhabit and all these different things that we hold.
Speaker B:So what would be your.
Speaker B:If somebody's listening to this and they're like, I do not take care of myself.
Speaker B:I do not pour into My cup.
Speaker B:I'm busy all the time.
Speaker B:I can recognize those feelings of burnout.
Speaker B:I feel like that might be where I'm headed.
Speaker B:I'd really like to find some more ease and some more peace and some calm and regulation.
Speaker B:What would be the first thing that you would suggest?
Speaker B:Or, like, maybe your.
Speaker B:Maybe your top three ways to try and regulate that situation.
Speaker A:I'm going to gift you with what got me out of it.
Speaker A:And that was my coach.
Speaker A:He said to me, laura, if your daughter came to you, she just had her fourth baby.
Speaker A:She looked like death.
Speaker A:She was pale, she wasn't sleeping.
Speaker A:And she came with all the kids and was crying at you because of how bad she felt, what would you say to her?
Speaker A:I said, I'd say, passing the babies, go to bed.
Speaker A:He's like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:But then she got, no, I can't do that.
Speaker A:I'm too busy.
Speaker A:You're going to think I'm a failure.
Speaker A:Like, and basically said everything that I'd said.
Speaker A:And I was like, I'd say, don't be Sicily.
Speaker A:You know, I fail you like that.
Speaker A:It's just like, let me help you.
Speaker A:And from there, he basically told me, like, she will not accept your help if you do not model to her what it is to look after yourself and to ask for help.
Speaker A:And that back to what we were saying about self advocacy, and you can do it for your kids, but maybe not for yourself.
Speaker A:That did it for me.
Speaker A:I could do it for her because, yes, I don't want her to.
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:I wouldn't want my worst enemy to feel the way I felt in those moments.
Speaker A:So I definitely didn't want my kids to ever feel like that.
Speaker A:And that switched the light on for me.
Speaker A:And that's what got me to begin asking for help.
Speaker A:I think asking for help is a big one as well.
Speaker A:So as well as saying, no, learning to ask for help, if you're like, I didn't know how to do that, that's something I did not know how to do.
Speaker A:I'm much better at it now.
Speaker A:Learning to say no and going outside and getting some weather on your face would be my top three.
Speaker A:And they don't have to be big things.
Speaker A:Like, even asking for help could be as little as asking someone to open the door for you.
Speaker A:Like just getting into the habit of, can you help me?
Speaker A:Or when someone offers to help, saying, oh, yes, thank you, rather than say, oh, no, I've got it, I've got it.
Speaker A:No, you don't got it.
Speaker A:So, yes, thank you.
Speaker A:That'd be really helpful.
Speaker B:Yeah, that one's huge.
Speaker B:The asking for help thing and the accepting for help, I find it's like a reflex.
Speaker B:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, Todd will ask me sometimes, you'll be like, do you want some help?
Speaker B:And I'm like, no, no, I've got it.
Speaker B:I've got it.
Speaker B:And then two seconds later I'm like, why did I say that?
Speaker A:It wasn't.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker B:There was no brain involvement in that sentence coming out of my mouth.
Speaker B:Like it's a reflex.
Speaker B:I've got it.
Speaker B:I can do it.
Speaker B:I can handle it all by myself, all on my own.
Speaker A:How frustrating is it when your toddler does it?
Speaker A:I do my shoes.
Speaker A:I do my shoes.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Well, no, you don't got it.
Speaker B:Clearly it's obvious to everyone except you.
Speaker B:Like, accept the help.
Speaker A:Accept their help.
Speaker A:And I do find it curious that we're waiting for someone to rescue us and then when someone does, we're like, no, no, we could.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're so annoying.
Speaker A:We're so annoying.
Speaker A:We are so annoying.
Speaker A:But yeah, that is definitely the two things I've learned the most is how to ask for help, accepting help, and also saying no.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Even to things that I actually want to do.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:They're the hardest, but necessary for long term health and wellbeing.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think so, too.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker B:If you can practice flexing those muscles, it gets easier over time as well.
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker A:It's like the accessory work when you're.
Speaker A:If there's anyone listening who does strength training.
Speaker A:Like, you can do the big muscle groups, but you have to train the little muscles in between.
Speaker A:Otherwise they break before your big muscles.
Speaker A:And this is kind of the same thing.
Speaker A:Like, you can't do the big life decisions if you don't practice doing the little small ones and little small nose.
Speaker A:They're the things that we need.
Speaker B:Love that analogy.
Speaker B:It's so perfect.
Speaker B:Such a perfect visualization of it.
Speaker A:Train the small muscles.
Speaker A:Yeah, they need to be strong as well.
Speaker A:Otherwise you just look like a Popeye.
Speaker B:And no one.
Speaker B:No one wants that.
Speaker A:But yeah, you want it.
Speaker A:You want all your muscles to be strong, not just your big ones.
Speaker A:So train your little accessory muscles.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Foundation basics.
Speaker B:Learn how to say no.
Speaker B:Learn how to accept help.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:As easy as that.
Speaker A:Imagine if it was that easy.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:Then we would all have lovely full cups and no problems.
Speaker A:We'd find some other problems.
Speaker B:You're right.
Speaker A:Today's problems are there, man.
Speaker A:That's how you combat today's over productivity, hamster wheel hype by taking some agency and saying, no, actually, this is not for me.
Speaker A:How do I make this better for myself and my family?
Speaker B:Absolutely brilliant.
Speaker B:Should we leave it there?
Speaker A:I think so.
Speaker B:Lovely.
Speaker B:Until next time.
Speaker A:This was with both hands.
Speaker A:And I'm Laura.
Speaker B:And I'm Claire.
Speaker B:And we'll see you soon.
