Leadership in Business & Motherhood
In this episode of With Both Hands, we explore the often overlooked relationship between motherhood and leadership. Through honest reflection, Laura and Claire question why women are so frequently seen as less capable leaders after becoming mothers, and why this narrative makes so little sense.
Expect reflections on how the skills developed through parenting, including emotional intelligence, negotiation, resilience and decision-making, are not only transferable to leadership roles but fundamental to them. The conversation examines how corporate structures often fail to recognise these strengths, while also acknowledging that leadership exists far beyond traditional hierarchies and job titles.
Drawing on lived experience, the episode challenges narrow definitions of leadership and invites a broader, more inclusive understanding, one that values intuition, alignment and care alongside ambition and authority. This is an invitation to reframe motherhood not as a limitation, but as a leadership practice in its own right, and to recognise the quiet, powerful ways women lead every day.
Transcript
Hi, welcome back.
Speaker A:This is episode one, series two.
Speaker A:I'm Laura.
Speaker B:And I'm Claire.
Speaker A:And we're two mums who met on the Internet.
Speaker A:So we're going to talk about leadership today.
Speaker A:And the reason we're doing that is because I spend so much of my time thinking about leadership, management, parenting and how they all link.
Speaker A:But how women leaders or women managers or women in C suite isn't seen much and my autistic brain can't fathom it.
Speaker A:Like, logically, it makes no sense to why women aren't in the C suite when we do a lot of things, caring and the parenting.
Speaker A:And to me, there's a lot of crossover.
Speaker A:So I spent a lot of time in my brain on this subject and I decided to bring Claire into some of these thoughts.
Speaker A:And we were like, hang on a minute, this needs to be a podcast.
Speaker A:This is something that our community would really benefit from.
Speaker A:And so here we are having that conversation.
Speaker A:So I think we need to roll back a bit.
Speaker A:I need to give you a bit of insight into.
Speaker A:Into my brain and why I see this very logical thing playing out in a very illogical way that really begins with the crossover between what I see as parenting and leadership.
Speaker A:So some background on me.
Speaker A:I have been a corporate girl for a long, long time.
Speaker A:I'm no longer now an entrepreneur, but I've spent so much time climbing the corporate ladder to get tables to lead.
Speaker A:And at home, I was also the mum leading my family.
Speaker B:The way you talk to people to.
Speaker A:Kind of get them to do what you need them to do.
Speaker A:And I always use analogy when I'm with my clients of getting people on the bus.
Speaker A:Like, if you've got a business strategy that needs, I don't know, for people to work really hard because the business wants to get to a certain place.
Speaker A:You have to get your entire team on the bus so the bus can drive in the same direction and no one's left behind.
Speaker A:And that needs a lot of change management.
Speaker A:It needs a lot of communication and it needs a lot of safety.
Speaker A:Like, people need to feel safe on the destination, where we're going.
Speaker A:I do that in work and then I come home and I need to get my children to put the shoes on so we can get out the door.
Speaker A:The language I use for my children to get them to do that is very similar to the language I use in business.
Speaker A:And I just don't understand how when a lady gets a title mother, they're kind of demoted or manage out the business.
Speaker A:I've only had today in Fact, no, it was yesterday.
Speaker A:I had a call off a friend who's just gone back to work after maternity and she's coming home crying every night because the way she's being treated I just don't like my, my brain can't.
Speaker A:Can't comprehend.
Speaker A:So I wanted to have a conversation out loud because I think sometimes it's brushed under the carpet or we're made to feel like we're making a song and dance out of nothing.
Speaker A:And I actually want to have the conversation on what it is to be a leader.
Speaker A:Why I think or why me and Claire both think women are excellent leaders.
Speaker A:How it comes into our parenting, but also how we can step up our leadership in parenting because I think there's lots of non leaders that parent and yeah, basically to empower you guys to have the tough conversations when you want to step into your leadership and feel like you can't.
Speaker A:So that is the basis of this conversation.
Speaker A:Claire, what are your thoughts when I go on my little rants about being treated like shit in the workplace?
Speaker B:Well, we have very different perspectives on this because unlike you, I am not a corporate girlie.
Speaker B:I dabbled very, very briefly in my early 20s and I think that there was one evening where I was sat staring at an InDesign document at 7:00 clock at night in a dark office and I thought, you know what?
Speaker B:I'm not sure this is the life for me.
Speaker B:So I opted out fairly early from the corporate gig, went backpacking, became a designer and I have worked for myself a lot longer than I've worked for anybody else.
Speaker B:So we come at this from different perspectives.
Speaker B:However, operating in the space of being an entrepreneur and running your own business, I think leadership, whilst viewed differently and contextualized differently, um, is as essential.
Speaker B:And I think it's important to consider what we mean when we say leadership and why leadership is so important because particularly in the context of motherhood and how that translates into business.
Speaker B:I think for me personally, if I'm really honest about it and if I really think about it, becoming a mother is the thing that made me a leader.
Speaker B:I wasn't a leader before I had my little boy and after I had him, I had to do some really, really hard things and I was not prepared for those things and I had to step up into those things from a place of being previously quite soft and naive and young and those things made me have to step up and be a leader because there was nobody else.
Speaker B:Obviously that's quite specific.
Speaker B:I was a single mother at that point in Time.
Speaker B:So when you talk about leadership, I was solely responsible for a very, very small baby.
Speaker B:And, yeah, there's nothing that'll make you a leader quicker than that, I don't think.
Speaker B:But I think that it's so important to recognize that a lot of women don't feel empowered to call themselves leaders even, and that leadership is something that's reserved for often men, not always, but often.
Speaker B:And certainly people who hold a particular status that we perceive as being a leader.
Speaker B:And that might be a job role or a job title, or it might be a position of power.
Speaker B:But I think it's important to define what we mean by leadership and how that applies to all of us.
Speaker B:All of us that are leading families and all of us that are leading businesses.
Speaker B:This is not something that's just reserved for people who are hold a job title of CEO or are in a position of power.
Speaker B:It's something which you can choose to step into.
Speaker B:It's an energy that you can choose to step into regardless of your circumstances.
Speaker B:And I think that's really important for us to define.
Speaker A:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker A:And don't have the definition, like, penned out, but to me, leadership is when you can use your brain to critically think, make your own decision, and then move forward with that decision.
Speaker A:Even if that's hard, even if that's the hardest thing to do, like making decision that a lot of logic would be like, that's not like, that's gonna all fall down, or that is not the right thing to do, or what if, what if, but when your heart knows, oh, this is the right decision and I have to move forward for it and you do it anyway, that, to me, is true leadership.
Speaker A:I think a lot of people, I include myself in this sometimes give our agency and our power away to other things.
Speaker A:Whether that's social media telling us what we should be doing, or data apps like the wearables or the apps that log when your baby's pooed and weed and had milk.
Speaker A:It takes us away from our intuition and it takes us away, I believe, from our leadership.
Speaker A:And in some ways, like, yes, they're good and they help, but in other ways, like they're actually make us into followers, not leaders.
Speaker A:And I don't understand that, like, is capitalism.
Speaker A:But on the whole, I don't understand how women in particular shy away from leadership.
Speaker A:And when I look at a room full of mums, all I see is leaders.
Speaker A:I find it really, really interesting.
Speaker A:Like I said, I ponder this question all the time.
Speaker A:I must have been six or seven.
Speaker A:I was Little.
Speaker A:When I first got told off for being bossy, I asked my husband, like, when did you first get shouted out for being bossy?
Speaker A:He's never been shouted at for being bossy.
Speaker A:And I think it's ingrained.
Speaker A:Women aren't allowed to be assertive.
Speaker A:We're not allowed to be from a very young age.
Speaker A:I think it's changing now that I don't think schools do it as often.
Speaker A:Like, my daughter is very assertive compared to where I was at her age, and she can.
Speaker A:She leads her football team really well.
Speaker A:But I think I was, though they tried to dim that light.
Speaker A:Like, no, that's not your place.
Speaker A:It's not your place to boss the team or to boss your classmate.
Speaker A:It's your space to be led by whoever it is that's leading.
Speaker A:And I never felt comfortable there.
Speaker A:So I've.
Speaker A:And I've never, never felt comfortable there, and I never will feel comfortable there.
Speaker A:And that's kind of just.
Speaker A:Just my makeup.
Speaker A:But it does also make me sad when I see other women allowing that to happen to them.
Speaker A:Like, I feel like I just want to go in and be like, no, you can make your own decision.
Speaker A:You don't have to do what they say.
Speaker B:I think you're right.
Speaker B:I think culturally.
Speaker B:I think there's a lot in place culturally that disempowers women from making their own decisions.
Speaker B:And certainly when we were growing up, I had a very similar experience to you.
Speaker B:And I think that assertive girls are often told that they are bossy and they are too much and they need to be quiet and be nice and be good.
Speaker B:The good girl complex.
Speaker B:It's absolutely rife.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think that that's a big part of the puzzle going back to how we define leadership.
Speaker B:I think that the underpinning piece there, through everything that you said and how I view leadership is very entrenched in that idea of being in touch with your intuition and being grounded and your actions being in alignment with your value system.
Speaker B:That, to me, is really, really core when it comes to leadership.
Speaker B:So leadership doesn't have to be loud.
Speaker B:It doesn't have to be shouty, but it does have to be intentional, and it does have to be steadfast.
Speaker B:And I think that that's really, really important.
Speaker B:And that applies so strongly when it comes to raising kids and raising a family.
Speaker B:And I think that in addition to the piece of how we were all raised and how girls are generally told that they need to be nice and quiet and good and kind and sweet, I think that a Lot of women, when they become mothers, because of the.
Speaker B:The society that we live in and because we are in a post capitalist consumerist hellscape.
Speaker B:I think a lot of women are completely sold the idea that they can't do any of this on their own.
Speaker B:They need apps, they need tech, they need gadgets, they need things that are outside of their own body to raise their baby, to take care of their baby.
Speaker B:And it just fundamentally isn't true in the majority of cases.
Speaker B:And I think it's such a shame.
Speaker B:It severs women from their intuition and it severs them from their own knowledge and their own power.
Speaker B:We know how to do this, we know how to have babies and how to take care of them.
Speaker B:It's literally in our bodies.
Speaker B:We know what to do.
Speaker B:And as a society, we've become so removed from that intuitive state that we tell women that they can't do it and they don't know what to do, and we disempower them in that way.
Speaker B:And so I think that it can be a very long road back to that intuitive place and being able to recognize your own value system.
Speaker B:And no, maybe, actually I don't want to do it like that.
Speaker B:Maybe I want to do this differently and I want to do this my way.
Speaker B:And again, it's a brave thing to reconnect with that and to choose to go against the shoulds and the expectations that come externally and choose to lead from a place of integral, intentional alignment with your intuition.
Speaker B:I think that that is such a difficult and brave thing to do, but it's so essential.
Speaker A:I agree wholeheartedly.
Speaker A:You just made me remember when I became a mum.
Speaker A:So I struggle, like, you can see that.
Speaker A:You became a leader when you had your first.
Speaker A:I had my first so young.
Speaker A:Who knows?
Speaker A:Who knows if that is why?
Speaker A:I mean, I've always had that bossy streak, but I had a child at 21 years old.
Speaker A:Like, I had a little person to take care of and to show the world.
Speaker A:And I was 21, but I remember he was less than a day old.
Speaker A:I was still in hospital with him and I'd fed him and I was.
Speaker A:I was burping him, I was doing something with him.
Speaker A:And the midwife came in and she's like, oh, like, really surprised.
Speaker A:I was like smiling at her like, can I help you?
Speaker A:And she said, oh, you're a natural.
Speaker A:And it sticks with me because why would I not.
Speaker A:Why would I not be a natural?
Speaker A:Why would a mum not know how to be a mum?
Speaker A:Because she had just spent nine Months growing this child.
Speaker A:And she's like, sometimes people are really scared to hold the babies and you're just here holding him.
Speaker A:And I was like, well.
Speaker A:And it never really dawned on me, but years later it did.
Speaker A:On how I hadn't had the chance to get in my own head.
Speaker A:I was still learning.
Speaker A:I'd literally come out of school, gone into work, and then ended up having a baby really young.
Speaker A:So I hadn't had that external, I don't know, noise that said I couldn't do it.
Speaker A:So does that make sense?
Speaker A:I feel like came really naturally to me, but part of that was because of how young and naive I was and how the world hadn't got the hands on me to tell me I couldn't.
Speaker A:And then back to my friend, which we discussed before, and her mom telling me that a baby didn't stop my life.
Speaker A:And also her having her child and telling me that giving birth was really powerful and she'd do it again.
Speaker A:And I was like, what?
Speaker A:I've never heard this before and now I say it to everybody.
Speaker A:That is the most empowering experience I've ever been through.
Speaker A:Yeah, it does change you.
Speaker A:It changes your chemistry.
Speaker A:But I do believe it makes you a better leader.
Speaker A:I don't think it takes away, and I think that's what I struggle with in the narrative of business is when a woman becomes a mother, she's too distracted to be a good leader or she's got too much on her plate to.
Speaker A:To lead the business well or whatever other narrative.
Speaker A:But it's always like, to be a mother is to be this whole thing.
Speaker A:And therefore you're not going to do this other thing as good as if you weren't a mother.
Speaker A:And I see the opposite.
Speaker A:I see that when you have this family that you have to provide for, it makes you step up more.
Speaker A:It also makes you, or it particularly me.
Speaker A:It's made me stand up for what's right with more.
Speaker A:More integrity and more assertiveness.
Speaker A:I'd say, like, because I know that these little people looking at me, their little role model, and I'm like, I do not want them to look me up on the Internet in 20 years time and see nonsense.
Speaker A:I want them to be proud of what I've done.
Speaker A:And there's always that sense.
Speaker A:Check.
Speaker A:I think like my kids and my grandkids and my great grandkids gonna be proud of this decision.
Speaker A:And so I rooted in that always.
Speaker B:Yeah, they hold you accountable.
Speaker B:And it's more than that.
Speaker B:I think you will do things for them.
Speaker B:That you wouldn't do for yourself.
Speaker B:So I think when I say that, like, having my son led me into a position where I found myself able to be a leader, and that's not.
Speaker B:I still find it difficult to call myself a leader sometimes.
Speaker B:I'm still working on that piece.
Speaker B:I'm still stepping into that role fully, I think, and still have moments where that feels like a big statement, which I'm worried I won't be able to fill.
Speaker B:I still experience that.
Speaker B:I'm still working on that.
Speaker A:And I adore that you just said it out loud.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's true.
Speaker B:And I can recognize the point at which.
Speaker B:When my little boy was born, I came home from the hospital with him, and we really struggled to establish breastfeeding.
Speaker B:I was absolutely determined that I was gonna breastfeed.
Speaker B:There was no other option available.
Speaker B:Like, there was no other option to me.
Speaker B:I was like, I'm going to breastfeed.
Speaker B:It's important to me.
Speaker B:So I was working to establish breastfeeding, and it took two or three days, which I later learned is completely normal.
Speaker B:And it takes a while for your milk to come in.
Speaker B:It takes a while for baby to learn how to latch.
Speaker B:It's the whole thing.
Speaker B:And we had a health visitor come and visit on the first day back, and she weighed him and said that he had dropped some weight from the hospital.
Speaker B:And she told me he was gonna have to go back in because he was going to have to be fed at the hospital.
Speaker B:My mum was sat next to me.
Speaker B:I just said very calmly, I was like, no, we won't be doing that.
Speaker B:And she looked at me in absolute shock.
Speaker B:She was like, well, you have to.
Speaker B:And I said, no, I don't think I do.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:I think that's my choice, right?
Speaker B:You're not telling me I have to.
Speaker B:You're not going to drag me to the hospital?
Speaker B:She said, no, okay.
Speaker B:No, thank you.
Speaker B:She looked at my mum and she said, will you talk some sense into her?
Speaker A:No, she did not.
Speaker B:I was 32 years old when I had my little boy.
Speaker B:I swear.
Speaker A:Stop.
Speaker B:And I was like, okay, I think it's time for you to go now.
Speaker B:So she left, and I established breastfeeding.
Speaker B:I saw a breastfeeding consultant.
Speaker B:She helped me with positioning and latch.
Speaker B:We were good to go.
Speaker B:He breastfed for two years.
Speaker B:Absolutely healthy little boy.
Speaker B:I knew in my bones in that moment that if I went to the hospital with him, they would take him away from me.
Speaker B:They would sever the connection that we were building, and we would not be able to establish breastfeeding.
Speaker B:I knew it in my bones and I said no.
Speaker B:And I stood up for him in a way which at that point in time I was not able to stand up for myself.
Speaker B:And that is the thing that pushed me into that role where I felt I could speak up, where I could make my voice heard, where I could listen to my intuition.
Speaker B:And that overrode what I was being told by this person and this perceived authority to me at that point in time, this older woman who was telling me something and I knew she was wrong and that was what led me to be able to stand up.
Speaker B:And that was the first time I did it.
Speaker A:And I just kept doing that.
Speaker A:I didn't do this.
Speaker A:So I was the girl who got told, the baby is losing weight, please go into hostel.
Speaker B:And I did.
Speaker A:And then, yeah, breastfeeding ended.
Speaker A:And I look back and I think that is naivety.
Speaker A:And also I was a young mum and I trusted other people to know what my baby needed more than I knew.
Speaker A:By baby four, that didn't happen.
Speaker A:And I really stood up in that pregnancy so much.
Speaker A:There was one time where I was in hospital and I basically wanted a home birth.
Speaker A:I wanted to humber for numerous reasons and I'd had three babies for.
Speaker A:And I knew, I knew I was safest at home.
Speaker A:It was also during the pandemic and there was no pandemic germs in my house and it just felt safer there for lots of reasons.
Speaker A:And I went into the hospital and basically this doctor was like, no, you can't do that, it's not safe.
Speaker A:I was like, no, it is safe and I will.
Speaker A:And they're like, please just wait in the waiting room.
Speaker A:So I went in the waiting room and they called me back in and it was me and eight healthcare professionals where they told me that my baby might die if I had him at home.
Speaker A:And I asked very informed questions like, what about the birth process is risky?
Speaker A:Like there was potential, there was risk post birth, but I live 10 minutes away from hospital.
Speaker A:So if that was the case, we can get hospital pretty quickly.
Speaker A:But the actual birth, what, what were the risks of the actual birth?
Speaker A:And they, they couldn't tell me.
Speaker A:There wasn't a single marker that said the birth was going to be riskier.
Speaker A:It was just that post birth.
Speaker A:All right, so if I had him in hospital, how long would it take for you to notice these post birth?
Speaker A:It'll be about an hour.
Speaker A:Okay, so if I've got two midwives on me at home, with no other women to look after because I'm the only person in that environment having a baby at that particular moment in time.
Speaker A:How quick are they going to spy it there?
Speaker A:Or they're probably spot in the next five, ten minutes, right?
Speaker A:So I'm gonna get seen quicker and my baby's gonna be seen quicker if I'm at home.
Speaker A:And they literally couldn't argue with it that they'd given me all the facts and they're like, yes.
Speaker A:I was like, okay, so I'll be having my baby at home.
Speaker A:And if he needs to transfer into hospital after, we will transfer him into hospital after.
Speaker A:And as it turned out, he did need transfer in his hospital.
Speaker A:We did go and everything was fine.
Speaker A:But I had him at home surrounded by my family because we had no babysitters because it's pandemic.
Speaker A:So I think is that stepping up, but is also the learning.
Speaker A:And I think this again, it's this constant.
Speaker A:Women don't know best, someone else knows knows best for us.
Speaker A:And this plays out in business as well as when we're literally having children, when we're doing what our bodies do.
Speaker A:I find myself thinking about it all the time.
Speaker A:How do we change this?
Speaker A:How do we articulate it?
Speaker A:What are the words?
Speaker A:And this topic in particular is something that I feel in my bones but very rarely can find the words to articulate what it is I'm feeling.
Speaker A:So this whole episode is me trying to do that out loud with you guys.
Speaker A:I just know in my bones there's something, there's a thread here I haven't quite managed to fully pull out my brain yet.
Speaker A:But there's something, there's something in it that's really interesting from your perspective as well, is how you make decisions like how self assured you are as a mother from day.I in particular have had to learn how to be a leader in my motherhood.
Speaker A:Although I mean business, it's kind of come a lot easier for me.
Speaker A:So for me to say I'm a leader in business comes a lot easier to me than saying I'm a leader in motherhood, as I think it's the other way around for you.
Speaker A:I think you find it a lot easier to say you're a leader in your motherhood and harder in your business, which is always curious to be.
Speaker A:How we pick different roles and how we decide what.
Speaker A:What comes easy to us and what doesn't.
Speaker A:There's something there too.
Speaker B:I think you're right.
Speaker B:For me, being a creative, being a designer, being an artist or a writer or a photographer or Any of those things.
Speaker B:I think if you've grown up in an environment where that's not seen as a legitimate profession necessarily or a legitimate way to make money, I think it's difficult to put yourself into a position.
Speaker A:Where you see yourself as a business.
Speaker B:Leader within that framework.
Speaker B:Not.
Speaker B:Not just I'm a freelance designer or I'm some variation of the starving artist.
Speaker A:Archetype, because it's the same the other way around.
Speaker A:So the reason I struggle to say I'm a leader in motherhood is because to be a leader in business means you're not a mother.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's so true, isn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So because I've latched onto the knowing I'm a business leader somewhere in this whole nonsense narrative means that I've seen and I'm not a mother.
Speaker B:And that's because we play into the generalized narrative that we have as a society that you can't be both.
Speaker B:There are women like us all over the place proving that that is not in fact the case.
Speaker B:You can be both.
Speaker B:It just doesn't look like.
Speaker B:Neither thing looks exactly like what the stereotype would believe it looks like.
Speaker B:So if you are a mother who's also a leader in business, you're probably not masking and presenting with performative masculine energy all the time, because that's not how leadership looks.
Speaker B:When you're a woman or anyone who embodies feminine traits or motherhood, you lead in a different way.
Speaker B:And I think where the gap is is that we haven't quite figured out how that works in a business context yet, because our structures around business are masculine spaces, some of them by necessity, I think, because there's something about masculine energy that I think is very valuable in certain workspaces and certain processes.
Speaker B:But I think that we run into problems.
Speaker B:And I know that you found this personally.
Speaker B:When women are forced to show up with masculine energy, that is not good for us, that's not good for our bodies.
Speaker B:And we need to find a way to step into a feminine way of leading that feels legitimate to us.
Speaker B:And one of the ways to do that is to make sure that we're having conversations like this where we're presenting an alternative and we're challenging the stereotype.
Speaker B:So the way that women are perceived as mothers, particularly in corporate workspaces, the image people have as of mothers as these dowdy, tired, worn out, baby brained, scattered people who aren't welcome or included or valuable in business spaces, is just nonsense.
Speaker B:That's not reflected in any of the women that I Know who are mothers?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:All of what you just said, I feel like I just had a huge light bulb moment.
Speaker A:Like, honestly, like, it's no secret that I've struggled to hold both.
Speaker B:Well, not.
Speaker A:No, that's a lie.
Speaker A:I've never struggled to hold both, because I have held both very well.
Speaker A:I've struggled to show up as both in one environment.
Speaker A:I've kind of compartmentalized it.
Speaker A:Like, today, I am business Laura, and then at night I'm mum Laura.
Speaker A:And what I'm trying to do is show up as no, I am both.
Speaker A:And if that is too much for you, then that is too bad for you, because I don't need to compartmentalize myself to make myself more palatable for you to accept me.
Speaker A:But with that does come this unease, even for me.
Speaker A:Like, even for me to say, I am a mother.
Speaker A:Like, I would never lead with that.
Speaker A:It's just not something I would do.
Speaker A:Like, if someone said, oh, who are you?
Speaker A:I'm like, I'm Laura.
Speaker A:I do this, I believe in this.
Speaker A:And I'm a mum of four.
Speaker A:Like, it's always like the.
Speaker A:The end.
Speaker A:End of a sentence.
Speaker A:I always want to include them, but it's never.
Speaker A:I never lead with that first because of that bias that even.
Speaker A:Maybe I hold.
Speaker A:Maybe I hold some of these unconscious bias that to be a mum is to be scattered and to not take your work seriously.
Speaker A:And actually, I just think that's.
Speaker A:And being a mum has made me more focused, it's made me more ambitious, it's made me want to forge the path that my children can follow me on so they don't have to work quite as hard.
Speaker A:So, yeah, definitely light bulb moment there, particularly with.
Speaker A:With us both.
Speaker A:Like, I feel like, again, yin and yang coming together, we are very much like, jeez and chalk, we on paper.
Speaker A:We should not be friends with something in that.
Speaker A:So that's so beautiful.
Speaker A:And I'm sure one of our listeners will come in and tell us what about it.
Speaker A:It is, because I can't quite work it out, but I know there's something there.
Speaker B:The thing that's really important is to find a way to integrate all the different parts of yourself.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I talk about this a lot with my clients because we're talking about building brands.
Speaker B:That's what I do with my clients.
Speaker B:And the start of that process is always a deep dive into what the roots of that brand are.
Speaker B:What's the story?
Speaker B:And the women that I work with, they are very often multifaceted women.
Speaker B:They do lots of different Things, they have different expressions of their creativity or their brilliance or their ideas or their thought, leadership, or just the ways that they show up in the world.
Speaker B:So it always comes back to, we need to build from a place of value, beliefs, vision, mission, and then we find the through lines that take that into a brand which can support and hold all of those different expressions.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And the same is true of this.
Speaker B:If you are a mother and you are a business owner or you are a leader in corporate, or you.
Speaker B:Anything else that you do, really, it doesn't matter what the expressions are, whatever it is you feel called to do, what your work is in this world, the through line is what you hold in alignment with your values and your intuition and keep coming back to that as a touchstone.
Speaker B:That's the through line that runs through everything.
Speaker B:So when we talk about leadership, if you lead from a place of value, for example, I know a really important value for you is safety.
Speaker B:And you can see how that permeates your motherhood and your business.
Speaker B:The through line's very obvious.
Speaker B:So as long as you keep coming back to that touchstone and leading from those values in alignment, you're going to be in a place that's authentic and you're going to be able to stand in your leadership.
Speaker B:Because the thing that weakens us, the thing that takes us from leaders to followers, is listening to those external voices instead of coming back to ourselves when we don't lead from our intuition, when we don't lead from alignment with ourselves, when, when we allow ourselves to be diluted and scattered from external noise and external voices and other people telling us what to do and ignoring our intuition, that's what takes us from leaders to followers.
Speaker B:And when you're a follower, you can't ever really step into that space where you need to be.
Speaker B:If you're following what other people do, if you're taking other people's business advice, if you're following someone else's roadmap, if you're listening to someone else telling you about how you should raise your own child and ignoring the voice inside you that says, I know how to do this.
Speaker B:Actually, I was born to do this.
Speaker B:This is, this is knowledge that I already have inside me.
Speaker B:And you push that aside for somebody else's opinion, then you weaken yourself and you take away your own leadership.
Speaker A:I feel like you just need to mic drop there.
Speaker A:However, what's really coming clear to me as well, and this comes back to business.
Speaker A:So everybody but the way you work with your clients to build a brand and this is where shock, horror.
Speaker A:I'm going to show how brand design and money Lincoln is where I start.
Speaker A:So when you build in a business or when you're working with founders, it always comes back to values.
Speaker A:It's what is it you're building, why are you building it and what value are you planning on creating for your stakeholders, your customers, your suppliers, whoever it is you're creating this thing for, and what value do you want to capture for yourself?
Speaker A:And every decision we make then for that business comes back to that.
Speaker A:Is that pulling us back to this value?
Speaker A:Is it taking us away from that value or not?
Speaker A:And it comes back to it all the time.
Speaker A:And I think when you build businesses around yourselves, which we have, because I think that's one, it's the easiest way to build a business because decisions are easier to happen because they're your values.
Speaker A:It's very difficult to build a business.
Speaker A:It's very difficult to work for a business that doesn't hold your values.
Speaker A:And you know, very easily, like when you step foot in a business or you sign a new client and you realize that the values are so unaligned to yours, that causes friction, so much friction for everybody involved.
Speaker A:And I think building businesses, building families, building relationships, it all comes back to this value.
Speaker A:And I think maybe to be a leader is just to make decisions from that.
Speaker A:There's definitely self leadership.
Speaker A:And then to lead other people is to get more people with the same values as you to get on your bus and move whatever it is, the movement, whatever it is, forward.
Speaker A:Maybe I feel like we've gone closer to defining it anyway.
Speaker B:It's much easier to get people on your bus when you mean what you say.
Speaker A:Oh yeah.
Speaker B:People respond when you act authentically from values that you actually believe in.
Speaker B:It's usually a lot easier to get.
Speaker A:People on your bus and for them to stay and to take the wheel sometimes when you're tired.
Speaker A:Wow, what an analogy.
Speaker B:We're really rolling with this bus.
Speaker A:We really are.
Speaker A:There'll be someone with a picnic, someone with the back.
Speaker A:There's definitely something in there and I think it's, it's what's driven me.
Speaker A:So as much as I've said, like I don't lead in my own motherhood, I think, like I'm going to call my own.
Speaker A:I definitely do, mate.
Speaker B:You have four kids.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And three of which have EHGPs, which do not come without leadership.
Speaker A:Yeah, I've done a lot of leading within my motherhood.
Speaker A:But I think it, it's interesting to me that I don't necessarily see that instantly.
Speaker A:Just like, I find it really fascinating with the way you run your business, and yet you still don't see yourself as a business leader.
Speaker A:I find both of those things extremely fascinating, but also not surprising.
Speaker B:No, I mean, that's the work, isn't it?
Speaker B:It's not an overnight job to undo an entire lifetime of conditioning.
Speaker B:So learning to step into that space and speak up for yourself and call yourself a leader and allow yourself to inhabit that much space, if you're a girl who was told that she was too much, that's big.
Speaker B:That's a big ask.
Speaker B:And it takes work and it takes time, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I also find it really interesting.
Speaker A:My daughter came home from school yesterday with the Critical Thinking Award.
Speaker A:She is ace, isn't she, about it?
Speaker A:She got some other awards and I was like, this one, this is.
Speaker A:This is the important one.
Speaker A:And she was like, oh, mum, like, pulling her face at me.
Speaker A:And I was like, no, really?
Speaker A:Like, I am so stoked that you got this particular one because it means that not only do you have a brilliant brain, you're using it to.
Speaker A:To challenge what other people are potentially saying.
Speaker A:And she was like, yeah, I got this one because I asked the teacher where she got a reference from or something.
Speaker A:And I was like, yeah.
Speaker A:So you're not just going, oh, you've told me that.
Speaker A:I said, therefore, it's the truth.
Speaker A:You've gone, I don't.
Speaker A:I'm not sure, like, kind of show me where.
Speaker A:Where the truth of that is.
Speaker A:I just think it's really important, particularly in the age of AI.
Speaker A:And then I was also just as stoked at the fact that the school had that award for not being compliant and actually querying and questioning.
Speaker A:It gave me so much hope yesterday.
Speaker A:I was like, the next generation, we are not.
Speaker A:We're not ready for them.
Speaker A:And yet we're leading the way for them in.
Speaker A:In the same breath.
Speaker A:And one thing I work on with all my kids is for them to ask for their needs to be met.
Speaker A:It doesn't always work.
Speaker A:It is a work in progress, but it's a huge thing in my house.
Speaker A:I really want them to be able to say, I need a break, I need this.
Speaker A:And that also requires me to model that, even though it's quite hard.
Speaker A:Again, this also comes back to business.
Speaker A:Like, as the leader of a business, you have to model how you want people to work.
Speaker A:And I don't want people in my team to be burnt out because I don't get the best work so if they need a break, I want them to be able to say to me, law, I need a break.
Speaker A:I'm feeling like I'm gonna get burnt out.
Speaker A:So I actually just need to pull my foot off the gas.
Speaker A:And I'm like, yeah, cool.
Speaker A:You do what you need to do.
Speaker A:Rest and come back.
Speaker A:But I also, I'm trying to instill that in my children.
Speaker B:Self advocacy is a really important one, isn't it?
Speaker B:And also, yes, questioning, not just blindly following, but actually questioning and critical thinking is so important and again, difficult when we live in a society that doesn't reward that, particularly in children.
Speaker B:Not a welcome trait in children.
Speaker A:Not that welcome when I get the pushback of.
Speaker A:But why is 8pm Bedtime?
Speaker B:Well, that's the other side of the coin, isn't it?
Speaker B:It's like, because I said so.
Speaker A:Because I said so.
Speaker A:When sleep is important.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's not all sunshine and Mabel.
Speaker A:It is not.
Speaker A:It's hard to bring little leaders up.
Speaker A:But I also think it's important and it's kind of our work.
Speaker B:Well, again, and that's you leading from your value because you're choosing that.
Speaker B:The alternative.
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker A:Thank you for that mirror.
Speaker B:You're welcome anytime.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's wild.
Speaker A:I got asked the other day why I don't wear my wearable anymore.
Speaker A:I used to always have like a watch of some description.
Speaker A:I'd wake up feeling great, and then I'd get a notification to say, oh, you're under recovered.
Speaker A:And I like, oh, I feel.
Speaker A:I'm like, no, I didn't, I didn't until the app told me I did.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's so true, isn't it?
Speaker B:Like, do you actually feel like that or are you just being told that you feel like that?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I was like, I'm not doing this anymore.
Speaker A:I just want to try and listen to my own body and trust that it's telling me what I need to hear.
Speaker A:And when you've relied on other things for so long, that's a really difficult thing to do, actually.
Speaker B:Again, that's a practice.
Speaker B:I think that's a muscle that you have to work.
Speaker B:Being able to drop into your body and actually sense check.
Speaker B:I love yoga for that because you can drop in.
Speaker B:And when you're.
Speaker B:When you get into the movement flow, it kind of allows you to do a bit of a body scan and you can get really in tune with like, oh, there's a little twinge in my knee there.
Speaker B:What's that?
Speaker B:Or like, oh, I feel a bit lightheaded.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Probably need to drink some water, maybe need to eat some protein.
Speaker B:I think movement in general is a good way to drop into your body.
Speaker B:It's crazy that this is something that we have forgotten how to do as a species.
Speaker B:I think about this all the time.
Speaker B:Like, just as mammals, it's wild that we rely on a watch to tell us what our bodies are doing because we've forgotten how to just be in our skin.
Speaker B:Like, it's wild.
Speaker B:That to me, as a concept, say it out loud.
Speaker A:Like, wow.
Speaker A:I was actually talking to Kieran the other day and he.
Speaker A:I can't remember what we're talking about now.
Speaker A:And I was like, sometimes I just feel like we don't live in real life.
Speaker A:I feel like I'm in some kind of simulation.
Speaker A:And he was like, what do you mean?
Speaker A:I was like, I don't know.
Speaker A:There's just so much nonsense these days that sometimes it's not like, is this even real?
Speaker A:Are we real anymore?
Speaker A:Are we just living in some kind of game show?
Speaker A:And he was like, there's a theory about that.
Speaker A:And I was like, I am not going down that rabbit hole today.
Speaker B:Several theories about that.
Speaker B:I feel like that's the kind of push that we're getting.
Speaker B:A lot of people are feeling very burnt out with the constant exposure to social media, the constant exposure to the online world.
Speaker B:What did I read the other day that terrified me?
Speaker B:I'll have to fact check the source, but it said that researchers believe that Gen Z will be the first generation of humans to have more memories as adults based on what other people were doing as they were growing up than they will of what they were doing themselves as they were growing up.
Speaker B:Oh, how terrifyingly dystopian is that as an adult to have more memories in your head of videos you've watched of other people living life than of your own life.
Speaker B:If that's true, that is just.
Speaker B:That scares the shit out of me.
Speaker A:Even if it's not true, I feel like I needed to hear it.
Speaker A:We've just been planning what we want to do this year, like holidays and this and the other.
Speaker A:And I'm getting a lot of pushback from my teenagers.
Speaker A:They do not want to holiday with us.
Speaker A:They just want to chill with the pals.
Speaker A:But no, I think they can come on holiday with us because it is one time where they kind of have to detach from the online world because we're doing lots of hiking or swimming or general adventuring.
Speaker A:And we did think, like, maybe we don't do as many this year.
Speaker A:But actually, no, if that is a fact, and even if it's not a fact, maybe I just needed to hear it.
Speaker A:So I was like, no, the adventures, the analog adventures will continue.
Speaker B:I'm praying that some of the digital stuff falls off a little bit before my little boy gets to the age where I have to.
Speaker B:I mean, I've.
Speaker B:He's not having a phone.
Speaker B:It honestly terrifies me.
Speaker B:He just turned six.
Speaker B:And that is you leading from your leadership team 100%.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And it's that sort of thing.
Speaker B:This is, this is why the advocacy stuff is important.
Speaker B:Because again, that's for my kids.
Speaker A:I would.
Speaker B:It's much easier to fight for my kids than it is for myself.
Speaker A:100%.
Speaker A:I am exactly the same.
Speaker A:Find it a lot easier to speak up on their behalf than I find it to speak up for myself.
Speaker A:And when I do speak up for myself, it's usually with the caveat of I'm doing this because it paves the way for my kids, so it's still kind of for them.
Speaker A:I would love to get to a place where I have the kind of self compassion where I do feel like I'm worth the self advocacy because I do think it's kind of enmeshed in there.
Speaker A:It's one therapist to pick open.
Speaker A:But I prefer to do it for my kids and not do it at all.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, I feel like that pushes the door open and then hopefully as a practice you can start to apply to yourself.
Speaker B:Like I would like to get there.
Speaker B:That would be.
Speaker A:That'd be nice.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, does it make us hostile women?
Speaker A:Like, it just makes us women who advocate for themselves.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And also, again, it all loops back because I think that in doing that you model for your kids, that being a mother doesn't equal being a martyr.
Speaker B:It's okay to advocate for your own needs.
Speaker B:It comes back to that modeling, I think, and being able to stand up for yourself.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think as well, on top of that as another layer that we spoke a lot about women and girls and feminine leadership today.
Speaker A:But I also think it's really important for the boys in our lives to see women in that as well.
Speaker A:Particularly when there's so much noise about women that isn't ideal.
Speaker A:So to see it being modeled in their own houses of women being leaders in business, standing up, asking for their needs to be met and their needs being met, their mum saying no and that no being respected is really important for boys to see as well.
Speaker A:And also bringing the boys in to our families and being Part of that as well.
Speaker A:And being around feminine leadership as well as masculine leadership I think is so important.
Speaker A:I don't think I've got this completely right in my house.
Speaker A:And it's something that I mull over all the time.
Speaker A:Like teens are no joke.
Speaker A: Teens in: Speaker A:I used to think I lost sleep thinking about teething and babies and whether they're hitting the milestone.
Speaker A:It's nothing compared to teenagers.
Speaker A:It is nothing.
Speaker A:It's so, so tricky.
Speaker A:But yeah, like I think it's the leadership piece and seeing mums lead is important for all children, not just our daughters.
Speaker A:And I think it's important for society as a whole to see that and for us to continue putting our needs first in order to, or advocating for our needs in order to model that for all kids, not just our daughters who will know that they don't need to be a barter as well.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, it's the only way to change the narrative.
Speaker B:The only way to challenge the stereotype is to model the alternative and to speak up and make sure that the alternative is known and seen and heard.
Speaker B:So our sons and daughters are going to be the ones working in the workplaces of the future.
Speaker B:That's the only way to change that.
Speaker B:If we want to change that perspective of mothers in the workplace as being second class citizens, then we need to change that narrative.
Speaker B:We need to challenge that stereotype and re establish what that can look like.
Speaker B:Because mothers do a lot of leadership work just in the day to day.
Speaker B:Even if you move away from the values piece, you know, like the multitasking, like if you, I mean you have, you have four, which is, you know, I have two.
Speaker B:And even that, you know, if you've managed to get everyone out of the car with shoes on and into the car with a snack and the car packed for whatever it is that you need to do that day, you will know the level of logistics that is involved, the level of negotiation.
Speaker B:Like it's wild.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:The level of negotiation is insane.
Speaker A:The shoes thing, and this is another like example of leadership.
Speaker A:I turned up at a primary school, not just any primary school, the primary school my children go to with one of my children not wearing shoes.
Speaker A:We live 30 minute drive away from said school.
Speaker A:That child, my youngest, did have his shoes on and somewhere between me physically putting his shoes on and us getting to school in the car, the shoes had disappeared.
Speaker A:He has no shoes on.
Speaker A:I don't know what happened to them.
Speaker A:And he was like, I took them off.
Speaker A:I was like where is I in the house?
Speaker A:And I was like, why didn't want to wear them?
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker A:So the teacher looked at me and was like, like looking as if I was going to say, I'm really sorry, I'm going to go home and get them.
Speaker A:But I wasn't going to do that.
Speaker A:I did not have the time to do another hour trip just to put some shoes on this kid's feet who already had them and now he doesn't have them.
Speaker A:Knowing that in school somewhere is his PE kit with pumps and I think they also have some willies somewhere.
Speaker A:And so I looked at the stage, I was like, he's just got no shoes to do.
Speaker A:Is PE it somewhere in school?
Speaker A:I think you got some wellies.
Speaker A:I'll see you at 3.
Speaker A:There was a note that went out in like the parent app asking for our kids to be sent to school with appropriate footwear, which was definitely doing it.
Speaker B:A level of passive aggressive.
Speaker A:And the younger version of me would have been absolutely mortified.
Speaker A:But this version of me, I was like, the kid went to school no shoes today.
Speaker A:And that's okay.
Speaker A:If that's the worst thing that's going to happen today.
Speaker A:We've won.
Speaker A:We've won at life.
Speaker A:And that is part leadership.
Speaker A:Knowing is.
Speaker A:It's knowing that a thing like that doesn't knock your entire day off.
Speaker A:It doesn't make you feel like you're an absolute awful mum.
Speaker A:No, I'm not an awful mum.
Speaker A:My kid just is very strong willed and took his shoes off before I noticed.
Speaker A:And that's okay.
Speaker B:In the grand scheme of things, how much does that matter, you know?
Speaker A:And actually it's now a story that I can tell on a podcast.
Speaker A:So everyone's a winner.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think there's, there's just so many little.
Speaker A:As I've grown up or matured or, I don't know, got stronger in my motherhood, less and less knocks me off center.
Speaker A:I think, I think I can just be like, okay, that's happening today.
Speaker A:Is it great?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Okay, here we are.
Speaker A:This is what we're playing with today.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know.
Speaker A:That was what it is to be a leader.
Speaker A:Maybe being a leader is to just roll with the punches in a general direction.
Speaker B:Well, again, I think being steadfast, I think being fairly unshakable and being, you know, like if your kids know that you, you are pretty solid, whatever comes their way, they're going to feel safe in that.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Because you can handle it, you've got it.
Speaker B:So they don't need to you know, there's a lot of safety in that, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:Oh, I'm excited to see where it all goes.
Speaker A:I'm really excited to see what adults these children become.
Speaker A:Like, I find myself daydreaming about that as well.
Speaker A:Like having this level of parenting and this level of self advocacy being awarded for critical thinking.
Speaker A:Like, what are they?
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm excited to see the adults.
Speaker B:That's nice.
Speaker B:That's a nice thought.
Speaker B:I'm not there yet.
Speaker B:Mine are too little.
Speaker B:But it is nice.
Speaker A:I mean, one of my finishes school this year.
Speaker B:That's crazy.
Speaker A:He's crazy.
Speaker A:I do not feel old enough for that.
Speaker A:Yeah, he finished his school.
Speaker A:He thinks he's going to college.
Speaker A:But then the other day he was like, oh, maybe I'll get an apprenticeship.
Speaker A:And I like, was like, no, you can't enter the work world.
Speaker A:Like, but then I was his age when I did.
Speaker A:And that blows my brain that there's an offspring nearly in the workforce.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's fierce.
Speaker A:And then I've got another one that's going to school in our shoes.
Speaker B:Well, you got a foot in both worlds.
Speaker B:It's nice.
Speaker A:I get asked all the time how I do it all, which I always find fascinating because I feel like I'm doing nothing quite often.
Speaker A:And that must be down to the multitasking and how good I've got making lots of little decisions very quickly to the point where I don't even realize I'm making them because I honestly don't know how I do everything I do.
Speaker A:I just do it because it needs to get done and I rest when I need to rest because otherwise nothing gets done and no one has anything because mum's in a heap on the floor.
Speaker A:Yes, I think there's definitely something as well in like the.
Speaker A:When you become a mum and you just get really good at making lots and lots of micro decisions all at the same time, which moves things forward.
Speaker B:I feel like.
Speaker B:I feel like you just kind of.
Speaker B:Each year it feels like stepping into a new kind of like phase of motherhood.
Speaker B:And I do think there is a proficiency to it which you step into.
Speaker B:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:And it comes back to the village thing.
Speaker B:Like, I was reading the other day about this idea of what the village really would have been like, the archetypal village.
Speaker B:And what it is, is it's initiation from older women as well.
Speaker B:You know, we talk about the village, we talk about mum and baby groups, we talk about our peers and having that kind of community in that village around us, which is super important.
Speaker B:But actually the elders, the matriarchs, that's really where that kind of level of initiation into knowledge comes from.
Speaker B:Because as a new mum, regardless really of how old you are or what stage of life you're at, when you're a new first time mum, you walk through that door and you really need a level of support there.
Speaker B:That is.
Speaker B:It's an initiation.
Speaker B:It's like, welcome into this world.
Speaker B:Here's all the things you need to know.
Speaker B:You need women who've been there on that path before you to hold your hand as you walk through that door.
Speaker B:And then you get further along that path and I suppose you move further towards taking up that position.
Speaker B:You move towards being a matriarch, you move towards being the one who passes the knowledge and the wisdom on, because it's learned experience.
Speaker B:And I think that there is a proficiency that you gain as you go along.
Speaker B:And every year I feel like you just get more kind of more under.
Speaker A:Your belt and closer to the matriarch.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's why it's so important to disseminate that wisdom to the new mums coming through.
Speaker A:And that is leadership.
Speaker B:And there we go.
Speaker B:There's the full circle moment.
Speaker A:Love it.
Speaker B:Should we finish there?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker A:I think that was a wonderful end.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Until next time.
Speaker B:I'm Claire.
Speaker B:And I'm Laura.
Speaker B:And this has been with both hands.
