The Myth of Balance
In this episode of With Both Hands, we open up about the myth of “having it all” and what it really looks like to live through the different seasons of our lives. Instead of chasing balance as a fixed goal, we discuss how it often shifts and flows, and why that’s okay.
We share our own experiences of finding structure, creating routines, and building systems that bring both steadiness and flexibility into busy family life. At the heart of it all is a focus on intentionality, clarity on what truly matters, and letting go of the rest.
This conversation is an invitation to slow down, reimagine what balance means, and approach our work, families and wellbeing with more ease and presence.
Transcript
Hi, I'm Claire.
Speaker A:And I'm Laura.
Speaker A:And we are two moms who met on the Internet.
Speaker A:And this is with both hands.
Speaker A:What we talking about today, Laura?
Speaker B:That's a really good question.
Speaker B:I feel like we're gonna miss Bust the balance.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We're gonna be looking at challenging the reframe of the idea of having it all, how we surrender to the seasons that we're in.
Speaker B:And maybe we'll have a look at how we structure.
Speaker B:I hear that word.
Speaker B:Our weeks to ensure that we have that ease and flow.
Speaker B:Moving a bit on from the last episode where we discussed the summer, we wanted to really continue that conversation, I suppose, and work out how we make our weeks feel balanced if that is something that we can actually get.
Speaker A:Why do you hate the word structure?
Speaker B:Why do I hate the worst?
Speaker B:Probably because I'm an Aquarius.
Speaker B:If you wanted to go full, will you.
Speaker B:Even if it's me who's told myself what to do, like, I can today go right, tomorrow I want to do this, and Wednesday I want to do this.
Speaker B:And then tomorrow comes, I'm like, who are you to tell me what to do?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So I've been the struggle, and I'm an accountant.
Speaker B:So, like, there was a lot of structure in my day.
Speaker B:And it's not that I want everything to be chaotic.
Speaker B:It's just that I need.
Speaker B:I need room to breathe.
Speaker B:And sometimes I find structure to.
Speaker B:I feel like I'm caged in and shackled, and that isn't how to get the best out of me.
Speaker B:Sometimes when I'm given overwhelmed, I'll put lots of structure in, and then I'm like, why did I do that?
Speaker B:So, yeah, I think the word structure, I want a different word.
Speaker B:It just feels like a cage to me that when I.
Speaker B:Even when you say the word structure in my head, I see me in a cage, I feel like I'm the other way.
Speaker A:I feel like I am trying to get more on board with stricter.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker A:Honestly just float around in chaos.
Speaker A:So I feel like I need the structure to kind of, like, guardrail my own chaos a little bit.
Speaker A:That structure is something I've been struggling.
Speaker B:With a lot over the past year.
Speaker A:Trying to, like, recognize that about myself.
Speaker A:I very much have the kind of like, well, I'm a creative mindset, which is quite a kind of traditional thing of like, you know, I don't do structure.
Speaker A:I don't do boundaries.
Speaker A:I just, you know, let my mind free flow, which is great.
Speaker A:But also what I'm learning is that I need A framework within which to free flow.
Speaker A:Otherwise the free flow is just uncontained in chaos.
Speaker A:And you can't actually run a business or a house with children in it if it's just constant chaos.
Speaker B:It's not productive for anyone.
Speaker A:So I feel like maybe it's a word thing, but for me, structure, like I don't see a cage.
Speaker A:I, I can see for myself like.
Speaker B:Quite a lot of safety in that.
Speaker A:Word at the moment.
Speaker B:Do you know what?
Speaker B:I absolutely love language.
Speaker B:How can one word have such a different response in two people?
Speaker B:This is why word matter as well.
Speaker B:Like this is a complete tangent.
Speaker B:But words really do matter.
Speaker B:And your perception of a word isn't always the same perception as someone else for the same word.
Speaker B:But if I'm too structured, it feels like a cage.
Speaker B:I like guardrails.
Speaker B:Guardrails are good, they keep me on the right path.
Speaker B:It's just when I put too many of them on, it starts to feel like a cage.
Speaker B:So time blocking doesn't work for me.
Speaker B:But knowing that I need to get X things done by this date with the guardrails of what I need to be doing, that kind of keeps me on the straight and narrow.
Speaker B:And I use Google Calendar, like Google Calendar.
Speaker B:I live my life off it.
Speaker B:If it wasn't for your calendar, I don't know what I do.
Speaker B:I don't think we would definitely not be having this podcast today.
Speaker B:I also have some other systems in my house.
Speaker B:Like systems is probably a better word than structure for me.
Speaker B:There's certain things I do in my house.
Speaker B:There's things that we've tried and just don't work and there's things that have stuck.
Speaker B:One, we've got a whiteboard at the front door that is a hand drawn day, not a full day, it's a week and everyone has their own column.
Speaker B:And then we'll just put the big things on there.
Speaker B:So like I travel a bit.
Speaker B:So if I'm down London or in Manchester for the day, I'll put that on.
Speaker B:Just the kids are kind of aware of whereabouts I am.
Speaker B:We'll put like PDs on there.
Speaker B:Hobbies go on the board so they can just look and they can see what they're weak.
Speaker B:And also where the adults that look after them are going to be.
Speaker B:And then we have like a bit on the side which is like things coming up.
Speaker B:So say me and Kieran are going away for work.
Speaker B:We'd put that coming up in two weeks, Mum and dad away or so they, they start to understand.
Speaker B:And then the other thing we've got actually is the whole food thing.
Speaker B:A huge thing for our house.
Speaker B:It always has been.
Speaker B:Again, we have autistic, so food is just, just a big topic that none of us particularly like thinking about, talking about or doing.
Speaker B:But we all have to eat to like stay alive.
Speaker B:So we have to do that, we have to eat.
Speaker B:And we've tried like meal planning.
Speaker B:And again it gets to the day where I've planned, I don't know, a pasta dish and I just don't want to meet that.
Speaker B:So we have like different days.
Speaker B:Like Monday is pasta night, but it's not necessarily the same pasta dish.
Speaker B:It's just that on a Monday we eat pasta.
Speaker B:Friday is usually some kind of take on a takeaway.
Speaker B:So we might have pizzas at home or something like that, or a kebab, like a whole make kebab.
Speaker B:So like we have different themes on a day rather than a strict meal plan because that doesn't really work for us.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's nice.
Speaker A:It's like a nice blend, isn't it, between like the system or the structure and like the flow of whatever actually want on that given day.
Speaker A:Quite a nice mix I feel like this is.
Speaker A:Todd is someone who responds very well to systems and I have always been much more chaotic.
Speaker A:So us learning to live together has been a huge lesson for me.
Speaker A:And like, and also having kids is just a huge lesson in like systems.
Speaker A:Like you need systems and simplicity.
Speaker A:And actually I, at first I felt like it was very much somehow an attack on my identity.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, I feel like it was that kind of like.
Speaker A:Well, no, I'm creative, free spirit and I just, you know, go with the flow and we, you know, we're not constrained by any plans or whatever.
Speaker A:And actually there is some beauty in that if it's done well.
Speaker A:But also in the chaos, it's not a peaceful place.
Speaker A:It's very difficult, I think, to achieve ease and peace through your days if there is no system, if there is no structure in place.
Speaker A:And particularly when you're managing kids, it's so important, isn't it, for them as well?
Speaker A:Because I think that they thrive within routine and they thrive with repetition.
Speaker B:Yes, this.
Speaker B:So this is something that we touch on a lot in our house is this need for routine again, autistics need for routine and repetition versus some days things are just different because the day is different for whatever reason someone else needs us or whatever.
Speaker B:So it's being able to have the routine but also try and teach my children that sometimes we have to be a bit flexible in the routine because of the way it works.
Speaker B:But I definitely identify with both of what you're saying.
Speaker B:The chaoticness and just reflowing and just seeing where the world takes us.
Speaker B:And then also kind of just wear the same clothes every day so I don't have to think about what I'm wearing.
Speaker B:Structure and routine and I am both of those people, like diagnosed autistic.
Speaker B:But there's a high, high chance I'm also adhd.
Speaker B:I've just not gone through the whole big morale of getting diagnosed and these two neurodivergence of me conflict quite often.
Speaker B:But the other thing is the way I was in my 20s with young children versus the way I am now with my children and the way I run my house is very different.
Speaker B:I think there is part of the age we are and the wisdom that we have and what we need is different depending on where we are in our life as well.
Speaker B:So me and Kieran have both been quite chaotic and we've always had a floor draw.
Speaker B:We've always struggled to like, we'll do the laundry and then it'll just stay in clean clothes piles and struggle to get into wardrobes quite often as now that drives me insane.
Speaker B:Ten years ago it wouldn't bother me.
Speaker B:Now it really bothers me.
Speaker B:Like, I need it to be away.
Speaker B:I need less things in my house at the minute.
Speaker B:Everyone's laughing in my house because I'm constantly at the tip or I'm constantly at the charity shop because I'm just getting stuff out of my house.
Speaker B:I'm sick of having a load of stuff around.
Speaker B:It's just more stuff to move around and find homes for.
Speaker B:So I'm finding that I'm just decluttering and trying to simplify how we do it and how much stuff we have.
Speaker B:Like, I just don't.
Speaker B:I don't want a load of stuff anymore.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:I'm in a very similar place and it's quite new to me.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:By nature, I tend more towards the hoarding end of the spectrum, I would say.
Speaker A:I find it difficult to let things go and I attach memories to possessions.
Speaker A:But I'm trying really hard to learn, like, what can be let go.
Speaker A:How important is that?
Speaker A:Why do you have that in your house?
Speaker A:Because it does.
Speaker A:It starts to affect the space, I think, and it starts to affect the way that you feel in your home when there's too much clutter.
Speaker A:So that's something again, I'm on a bit of A journey with this year.
Speaker A:I don't even think it's age based, you know, like, I think it's more to do with just the stage you're in.
Speaker A:Because when you were talking about like how you and Kieran were when you were in your 20s with the kids when they were young, I can recognize some of that from when I was a single mom particularly.
Speaker A:I gave a lot less kind of attention to any kind of systems and structure.
Speaker A:I was quite keen on my little boy having touch points through the day that were routine and kind of being able to anticipate what was going to happen because I think that's important for kids in general.
Speaker A:But I feel like I was.
Speaker A:I had a lot more space to just kind of be in the moment with him, you know, because, yes, I was still running the business, but it was just me and him and he was, you know, very small.
Speaker A:I met my husband when he was 2, so he was very, very little.
Speaker A:And I can recognize where our days were much more flowy because we would just, you know, wake up together and then we would just sort of spend the day pottering about.
Speaker A:And it was much less structured than it needs to be now by necessity because there's more people in our family and there's more going on and we're at a different stage now, like he's in school, so there's a lot more structure there by necessity.
Speaker A:So I would say rather than it potentially being age based, it's more just to do with where you're at in that journey maybe and what your circumstances are.
Speaker B:That actually probably resonates more.
Speaker B:When my children were younger, I was still in the corporate world as well.
Speaker B:So I had to be at work by half 8 in the morning, which meant the kids had to be out by eight.
Speaker B:They were dropped off.
Speaker B:A breakfast club.
Speaker B:I was then at work, at my desk, at my desk for half 8 in the morning.
Speaker B:I would then work until 5 and then I would leave, pick them up, throw something down the next.
Speaker B:Usually they'd have something at after school club, but it was like some kind of snack.
Speaker B:And then we'd make them a quick tea and then they would go to bed.
Speaker B:And there was literally no time for me to clean up and making sure everything was tidy and put away.
Speaker B:We did that like Monday to Friday and the weekends I was studying for Massima.
Speaker B:It was a continuum of working day because I was always chasing this next step, next thing, proving myself, which then meant I didn't have much time to look at the environment that we were Actually living in and be like, is this where I want to be?
Speaker B:Because it wasn't.
Speaker B:I didn't want to be there.
Speaker B:I didn't want the invented house that was sat in.
Speaker B:I wanted to own the house.
Speaker B:So that's what I was aiming for and never really resonated with where we were at.
Speaker B:And I think what's happening now is I'm looking, I'm like, right, this is where I'm at.
Speaker B:Is this where I want to live?
Speaker B:And no, like there's too much stuff and you just tidy up for them to be rooting and they're not actually playing with those toys or.
Speaker B:I've not actually read that book in 10 years.
Speaker B:Why is that still stuff in my house taking up space that could have something that I want to read today and actually I want to play with my children with.
Speaker B:It's definitely a journey I'm currently on in trying to try and simplify my.
Speaker B:My home in the hope that it means that we can put more structure in place than what actually happens.
Speaker B:So instead of spending 10 minutes tidying up a bookcase because there's too many books on it, I get to spend 10 minutes reading a story to my children.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:I'm trying to get that the space back so I can actually have space time wise in my day to be more present with the kids.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:And that's, I guess that's paradoxically how you can actually find freedom in the structure.
Speaker A:Because by having those systems in place and by simplifying and by having things a certain way, you do, you free up chunks of time and you free up chunks of brain space and energy that weren't there before.
Speaker B:The word structure, still, as soon as you say it, I literally see the bars come down like I'm in jail in my brain.
Speaker B:And although I feel that with the word structure, I do think I have a lot of structure in my life.
Speaker B:And I think adding more is what then gives me the Jeeves.
Speaker B:There's also discipline and there's also, I'd say systems.
Speaker B:I think I put further word systems because systems feels like movement rather than sat on this structure that is unmoving.
Speaker B:And I like things to be a bit more flowy.
Speaker B:So I think systems is probably what I resonate with more.
Speaker B:And like my time system and my calendar system and my laundry system and all that jazz.
Speaker B:Systems is probably what.
Speaker B:And processes, which is very.
Speaker B:That's corporate Laura coming in.
Speaker B:But I do have processes in my home that enable me to have what I need for work and also all the other relationships that I really, really love and I want to keep nourishing.
Speaker A:I feel like the thread is intentionality, isn't it?
Speaker A:I feel like that's the thread that underpins it all.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker A:It's not necessarily about what the systems or processes or structure or whatever word you prefer look like.
Speaker A:Maybe it's more to do with just the intentionality, like you were saying, actually stopping and looking around and being like, is this what I want it to look like?
Speaker A:Being present enough to think actually is what I'm building still what I want to build?
Speaker A:Because I think that it's so easy when we have goals or we have things in mind and we're doing all of these different things and we're very, very busy to forget.
Speaker A:To actually take that step back and look at it and be like, okay, well, I've spent a year building towards this one thing, but actually, I don't know if that's the thing that I want to build towards anymore.
Speaker A:So maybe we can just course adjust a little bit.
Speaker A:That requires taking a step back and being really intentional about the way that we do things and the way that we run businesses and the way that we run the homes and the things that we put in place, the way the things we have in our house, what we clear out.
Speaker A:I think that it all comes back to the idea of intentionality.
Speaker A:And I think that we're often kept too busy to allow ourselves to actually take the time to think about that properly and to address that and to be intentional about our intentionality.
Speaker A:Does that make sense?
Speaker B:Yeah, it makes so much sense.
Speaker B:Intentionality for me is it.
Speaker B:That is what I bring into my every day.
Speaker B:We've spoken before about the influences like the business influences on social media and how they might have this seven step morning routine that includes meditation and breathing, stretching and journaling and all these things that they do.
Speaker B:And we don't necessarily have the capacity to build so much stuff in our days because we have little people that need milk or they need their breakfast or they need to be dressed because they can't dress themselves, that kind of thing.
Speaker B:And we still gotta get them to school for 9am but what I do do is look at my day and pick three things that I need to get me to where I want.
Speaker B:And the reason I know where I want is because every quarter I'm looking at what I said at the beginning of the year, what I wanted to achieve this year, and everything comes back to that.
Speaker B:And I also look at it and go, is that still what I want.
Speaker B:So I'll look at this is what I said I wanted to do this year.
Speaker B:1.
Speaker B:Is that still what I want to do this year?
Speaker B:Yes or no?
Speaker B:If it is, great.
Speaker B:Does what I'm got on my diary today bring me closer to that or further away from that?
Speaker B:And if it takes me further away, I then recalibrate my day and put the things that are moving me closer to whatever it is that I'm aiming for to the top of my priority list.
Speaker B:And then if I get to the other things later on in the day, great.
Speaker B:If I don't, it doesn't matter because they weren't moving the needle.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I suppose that's another system that I have, things that I just do.
Speaker B:They're probably really helpful for people to know about.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I think intentionality is.
Speaker B:Is it.
Speaker B:And one of the easiest ways that I do that is just having a word of the year to live by.
Speaker B:Because if, like, it's just a singular word, it doesn't need a full notebook and a load of time.
Speaker B:It's just a word.
Speaker B:So my word this year was play.
Speaker B:So even this podcast, did it feel playful when we first started talking about it?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Does it still feel playful?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Therefore, it's in.
Speaker B:It's in the calendar.
Speaker B:Like, it's.
Speaker B:It's playful.
Speaker B:And that was my word of the year this year.
Speaker B:And yeah, a lot of the things I.
Speaker B:The big decisions I've made, I've been heavily influenced by that word.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker A:It's like a touch point, isn't it?
Speaker A:Whenever you come to make a decision or consider what the priorities are, or consider intentionality, it's like a touch point.
Speaker A:You can just put your finger on it and it's like you say, does this resonate with this word?
Speaker A:Does this feel playful?
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker A:We'll do it.
Speaker A:Does it still feel playful?
Speaker A:We'll keep doing it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's a really easy end.
Speaker B:If it came to a point where it didn't feel playful anymore, I'd readjust that.
Speaker B:Why is it not feeling playful?
Speaker B:What is it that we are now doing now?
Speaker B:It doesn't feel playful.
Speaker B:If that position did come and then it'd be like, right, how do we bring it back to play?
Speaker B:How do we stop it feeling whatever it does and bring it back to the playful?
Speaker B:What do we need to do?
Speaker B:It doesn't have to be complex.
Speaker B:I think a lot of people think systems and structure needs to be this big origami of matchsticks, when actually it could Just be a word.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's a really accessible way to start bringing it in.
Speaker A:And I think when we bring it back to the context of balance, or the myth of having it all, which was our starting point for the conversation, I think that that's a really powerful way to try and start to navigate that.
Speaker A:Because obviously we know that we can't have it all.
Speaker A:We know that we're not going to achieve perfect balance between all the different facets and all the different elements of who we are and what we do and what we have to do and what we want to do and all of these things.
Speaker A:So I think that bringing it back to something as simple as the intentionality of a word, or it might be a few words, whatever it is that you need to be that touch point, I think that that can be a really powerful way to navigate that.
Speaker A:So obviously there's potentially hundreds of decisions, thousands of decisions we have to make all of these different things that we have to do.
Speaker A:But it's that.
Speaker A:Is this going to move the needle?
Speaker A:What's the intentionality here?
Speaker A:Is this moving me towards where I want to be?
Speaker A:So it's kind of simultaneously being present enough to take that step back and think about the intentionality and put your finger on that touch point and assess whether or not what you are doing is in line with that, whilst also honoring and holding that future vision, that thing that you're working towards and intentionally taking steps towards it.
Speaker A:I think that that can really help to navigate your way towards that thing whilst also being intentional about the things you keep and the things that you let go of.
Speaker A:Because we can't have it all.
Speaker A:We have to let go of so much all the time.
Speaker A:And if you have that as like an anchor point, we know where we're going, we know the steps that we need to take to get there, and everything else can be let go of, then I think that that's a step towards achieving something that looks more like balance.
Speaker B:And I don't think there is a balance.
Speaker A:Balance is the wrong word in the next.
Speaker A:Not balance.
Speaker B:That is the word that everyone bans about.
Speaker B:That is the word that we're all meant to be bloody striving for.
Speaker B:People leave jobs by Linda, Jeff or didn't have the right work life.
Speaker B:Balance.
Speaker B:And it's like, what does that even mean?
Speaker B:And people look at me and go, how do you do all that?
Speaker B:And I get that question so often, and I don't know how to answer it because I don't know how you don't do it.
Speaker B:Do you know, I. I am me and I have the life I have, and this is the only life I know.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker B:But it doesn't feel balanced.
Speaker B:I don't look at my day and go, right, I have given two hours to you, two hours to you, two hours to you.
Speaker B:Therefore, I'm balanced.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:It's not like that.
Speaker B:It's more, how do I feel?
Speaker B:Do I feel at peace and at ease?
Speaker B:And if I don't, something's not right.
Speaker B:But if I feel peaceful, I feel safe, I feel like things have aligned.
Speaker B:And that means that I've got the systems and the things in my life that are working for me.
Speaker B:And that doesn't necessarily mean I'm not doing really hard things, because in the background there's some really tricky, challenging situations going on that pull me out of ease and peace.
Speaker B:They're not peaceful things, they're not easeful things, but my integrity says I have to continue on those things.
Speaker B:And therefore, to counteract that, I have to put some big softer things in.
Speaker B:I have to put a lot of emotional stuff in therapy, coaching, sound baths, nervous system resetting, massages to help me combat those challenging situations.
Speaker B:In an ideal world, I wouldn't be in a challenging situation and I wouldn't have to have therapy.
Speaker B:But that isn't where we're at, you know, so it's balancing all those hours of things that we have to do whilst also trying to have a purpose and trying to find the work of our life that gives us something to live for.
Speaker B:And actually, what Burnout taught me was the thing to live for.
Speaker B:Always getting to the top of that corporate ladder.
Speaker B:The thing to live for is my family and my children and my legacy.
Speaker B:And the work I do and the talent I have in the work I do wasn't aligned with the right people.
Speaker B:And I've had a complete V shift at what that now looks like, and it feels much better.
Speaker B:I don't feel burnt out, but I'm probably doing more than I've ever done before.
Speaker B:But it feels better.
Speaker A:I think that's the key.
Speaker A:Reframe.
Speaker A:I think the key in the phrase is work life balance, which differentiates work from life.
Speaker A:It puts it in a separate category.
Speaker A:And I think the key difference there, the key shift, is incorporating work as one more facet of life.
Speaker A:So if you think about work as a separate entity and often an overriding one, and I know that this is often something which, you know, if you have to be in an office a certain number of hours, a Day, it will feel like a huge sort of overriding chunk of your life.
Speaker A:It will feel like that.
Speaker A:You and I talk a lot about an idea of sort of building, like legacy building, building a body of work, doing work that you feel proud of, that aligns with values.
Speaker A:And I think that if you can reframe work as that as being a part of your life and everything weaves together because it's tied into a value set rather than being differentiated into this is who I am in life and this is who I have to be for work.
Speaker A:If you can kind of amalgamate that and come at everything from your values and from your.
Speaker A:From your intention and from what you want your life to look like as an overall, then I think it can be easier to understand this idea of balance.
Speaker A:Balance indicates sort of two sides that are sitting equal, which it almost never is.
Speaker A:I feel like it's constantly going back and forth, which is why balance isn't really the right word.
Speaker A:But I don't know what the word is.
Speaker A:But that is the word that we use, isn't it, in these conversations.
Speaker A:So I think that that's a really big piece of the puzzle.
Speaker A:If you can start to incorporate your work into your life kind of as an overall instead of thinking it as a separate entity, I think that that's a big shift which can help to make things feel more manageable at least.
Speaker B:Yes, I agree there's.
Speaker B:What is the word?
Speaker B:I don't like the word balance, but it's what everyone uses.
Speaker B:And I don't like this whole thing of work and life being separate.
Speaker B:I agree with you on that.
Speaker B:I want to use the word blend, but I also think the elephant in the room is the untold load that is predominantly the main parent, usually the mother in a heterosexual relationship is the mental load that is put upon her.
Speaker B:So yes, we can blend the work and the life, but actually the life portion of that increases by huge amounts with every child.
Speaker B:Not in the same way the other partners does.
Speaker B:That mental lord.
Speaker B:The doctor's appointments, the hospital appointments, the parents, evenings, all the add in that also comes with a child as well as keeping them alive, making sure their PE kits are washed and cleaned and back in the bags for the right pd that predominantly falls on the mother's shoulders the majority of the time that this studies on this.
Speaker B:It doesn't work like that in my house.
Speaker B:Like this isn't.
Speaker B:This isn't my legacy.
Speaker B:It's me and my husband do share the load a lot.
Speaker B:However, we've also come up with obstacles in this, the fact that social workers will ring mum, even if they've got both parents on the system, they'll ring me.
Speaker B:We are social workers because we have autistic children.
Speaker B:They will bring me the schools where giving me.
Speaker B:So that's four schools, four social workers, four HCP processors.
Speaker B:They're all calling me first and then I still got work and everything else that usually, like, it's a ridiculous load that comes onto mums in particular.
Speaker B:And I think, yes, we want to blend it, but we also want to delegate some of this stuff.
Speaker B:It's not, let's blend some of this and not keep hold of it all.
Speaker B:Actually, there's some things that we should be delegating and trying to change that.
Speaker B:Like I'm always saying, dad's numbers on the phone, ring him, I'm in work, if you need me on this day, I'm uncontactable.
Speaker B:Ring dad.
Speaker B:But I have to be proactive about it.
Speaker B:But it's because I really want to start reframing people's brains in these systems that like, oh, default is not mum, Default is being a parent.
Speaker B:Like, doesn't have to be mum all the time because that's taken her away from her work, from what she's doing that day.
Speaker B:And that should be taken away to.
Speaker B:Or the other partner, not just the parents.
Speaker B:I think that's that delegation as well.
Speaker B:It's not just on us to just create capacity to hold all this stuff.
Speaker B:We should also be looking at it going, is this solely my job or should I be asking someone else step up?
Speaker B:Should I be asking the school to be bringing other people?
Speaker B:Is this actually my job to take on is something that I think if more people did, our daughters will not have to deal with the same crap.
Speaker A:I think expectations that are placed on.
Speaker A:I think you're right.
Speaker A:Predominantly women.
Speaker A:Well, I know you're right.
Speaker A:There's been studies done, numerous studies done on it.
Speaker A:The mindset shift hasn't kept up with the reality that women are facing.
Speaker A:It hasn't kept up with the fact that the majority of families can't survive on a single income.
Speaker A:It hasn't kept up with the fact that women want to work and, you know, have things that they're passionate about and have things that they want to do outside of the home.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker A:And I also think that it's very, very nuanced, isn't it?
Speaker A:And I think that there's the piece where if you work in a more traditional work environment, you can be in an office for the day and Be actually unavailable like you were talking about for things like phone calls, for things like being pulled out of school because your child is ill and those kind of things where the default is to ring the mum.
Speaker A:And then when you look more into the kind of self employed world.
Speaker A:For example, I was having a conversation with a woman the other day who's recently left corporate and gone self employed.
Speaker A:And she was talking about how she was struggling with, because she works from home now and her husband works out of the home, dealing with the expectation that she would be the one to make dinner and keep on top of the washing and do kind of the household chores.
Speaker A:And it was this kind of new place she was finding herself in where because she was physically in the home, there was a kind of expectation of her that she would do the role of being a housewife.
Speaker A:And she was sort of saying, but I'm not a housewife, I am setting up a consultancy business.
Speaker A:And so being able to carve out the time to actually create that business that she's trying to set up whilst sort of meet these expectations and adjust to that space setup, you know, between her and her husband and the way that that looks dayto day was the main challenge actually that she was finding when she was talking about setting up this new business.
Speaker A:And I thought that was interesting because, you know, the, the overriding narrative is, is as we've talked about before, the man bashing one, blame the man.
Speaker A:And I don't think that's fair.
Speaker A:I think that it's a societal expectation and it needs to be challenged on a, on a wider level really.
Speaker A:My experience is that it's something which is just kind of taken for granted and potentially not really thought about too much.
Speaker A:But it is, it does take up huge chunks of time.
Speaker A:It takes up enormous amounts of mental bandwidth that could otherwise be channeled in other areas.
Speaker A:And I think you're right.
Speaker A:It's about learning to ask for help and it's about being able to delegate and make it clear that these things need to be shared.
Speaker A:And it doesn't all sit on the woman's shoulders.
Speaker B:I think there's just.
Speaker B:Society does need to catch up.
Speaker B:And I know I come back to this all the time, but I think it's also this socioeconomic gap as well.
Speaker B:So I don't just think it's men and women.
Speaker B:I actually think the socioeconomic where working class are more likely to struggle with the load because I think there's just more load upon them compared to your middle and higher classes.
Speaker B:Because there is the real need for two incomes like they, you cannot survive on a one income family at working class level.
Speaker B:And they've still got all the schooling, all the admin on top of that and the pressure to be doing more, to be being better than ever before because of social media.
Speaker B:And that is just, that's just a lot like it is such a lot.
Speaker B:And I think having to.
Speaker B:Yeah getting really intentional on where you want to spend your time and why is the thing that that is what has helped me completely change my life.
Speaker B:On how I operate on a day to day basis, but also how I feel.
Speaker B:I'm not having daily panic attacks anymore.
Speaker B:I do still have the occasional panic attack.
Speaker B:Again, those challenging situations I was talking about earlier, they still have a hold of me in some way that does still cause me to get panicky at times.
Speaker B:And I think learning to live with these things is trickier for different socioeconomic backgrounds.
Speaker B:And I've come from this in a quite a privilege that I have got to a place in my life and in my career that I am talking from a place of privilege now.
Speaker B:But it's not always been this way.
Speaker B:I have relied on working tax credits where my, when my youngest, when my eldest was a youngster because I had to go back to work.
Speaker B:But I didn't have to go back to work.
Speaker B:It was actually economically beneficial.
Speaker B:I. E. I would have more money in my bank if I didn't go back to work.
Speaker B:If I'd have claimed benefits and not gone back to work, we would have had more money at the end of the month than me paying for nursery.
Speaker B:But I chose to go back to work because I knew my career would get me out of that if I just play the long term game.
Speaker B:Much to a lot of people's dismay.
Speaker B:They're like, I can't believe you're doing that.
Speaker B:You shouldn't stay at home with your baby.
Speaker B:But I didn't want to do that at that time and I probably would still make the same decision now because I've always been ambitious and I'm not afraid to say that.
Speaker B:And I think women are allowed to be ambitious these days.
Speaker B:Well, I don't think we are and I am and I was.
Speaker B:And I think that balance back then, it wasn't there.
Speaker B:I worked a lot and now I work a lot.
Speaker B:And I'm also very present for my kids when I'm with my kids.
Speaker B:And I plan day days with my children to really connect with them where they're at.
Speaker B:And yes, that means sometimes I'm being taught how to do roadblocks, which I still don't know.
Speaker B:I did that with my 5 year old on Saturday.
Speaker B:Basically spent an hour being sheltered out because I was doing it all wrong.
Speaker B:But 10 years ago I wouldn't have done that.
Speaker B:I'd be like oh no, the PlayStation is rubbish and I'm affecting my kids brains and they shouldn't be on it.
Speaker B:As now I kind of play Roblox with them slash get them killed much quicker than if they're a play down the roof.
Speaker B:But you're joining in and that's for me.
Speaker B:I'm crying and using play again, it comes back to that word.
Speaker B:Everything is intentional.
Speaker B:How can I play with my kids?
Speaker B:I play with my kids where they're at.
Speaker B:I don't try and force them into my perception of play.
Speaker B:I try and meet them where they are and play with them the way they want to be played with rather than going oh no, I'm going to set this game up and you need to play with me with this game.
Speaker B:I don't do that anymore.
Speaker A:I think child led play is really powerful, especially from a connection standpoint.
Speaker A:But I wanted to come back to what you were talking about sort of in the past and sort of the anxiety and things.
Speaker A:And I know that you experienced burnout towards the end of your corporate career.
Speaker A:And I think that one of the things that I find a lot with clients who have been in corporate and then made the move to self employment or to founding businesses, I think that traditional corporate business creates this culture of urgency which I think people internalize and carry through and just hold inside them.
Speaker A:It's this idea of everything is business critical and it must be done right now, this second.
Speaker A:And I remember when I used to work in design agencies and you know, it would be the most trivial thing and you'd get an email and it would be marked, you know, triple urgent must be addressed within the next hour.
Speaker A:And it would be something like can you make the logo bigger on this document?
Speaker A:And one of my favorite things to say when people started flapping was just guys, we're not brain surgeons here.
Speaker A:Like we're not, you know, we're not top end government making huge decisions that are going to affect millions of people.
Speaker A:It's just a PDF, like it's going to be okay.
Speaker A:And I think that that is something which obviously some things in business are extremely important and business critical.
Speaker A:But that idea that I think incorporate where you know, this idea that no, you can't leave 15 minutes early to pick your child up from school because it's absolutely imperative that you are in the office between these hours or, you know, this meeting that we all have to be in is absolutely critical and everyone has to be there and it's really not.
Speaker A:And I think relearning how to kind of, again, coming back to intention and prioritization, letting that stuff go, identifying what is actually important again can be really helpful with trying to simplify and pare down and let go some of the things that maybe are making life more difficult than it needs to be, Especially when you're already dealing with what we've been talking about, the huge admin and mental load of school admin of taking care of children, of thinking about all the doctor's appointments and the birthday parties and all the other things that we have going on, being able to identify where some of that stuff can go.
Speaker A:I remember speaking to you before the summer about, like, I was in shock at the amount of admin that came home from my little boy's school.
Speaker A:And you said you were just like, yeah, I don't.
Speaker A:I don't really do that anymore.
Speaker A:I just go to the river with my kids and bond with them then.
Speaker A:And I was like, yes.
Speaker A:And that is what I'm going to do for the entirety of this school journey.
Speaker A:Like, I thought that was so just like.
Speaker A:You were just like, yeah, don't flap.
Speaker A:Just do what's important.
Speaker A:And you're so right about that.
Speaker A:You know, it's not that important.
Speaker A:If I forget to make cakes for the school fair, my little boy's not going to remember that or care about that.
Speaker A:He's going to remember about the time that we spent together and the connection that we have.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'd also caveat this.
Speaker B:So there is times when my children have got really upset at the fact that we've not remembered the bake sale or we've not done something.
Speaker B:And I just had the conversation with them, like, I am.
Speaker B:I'm so open on this with the kids, on, like, the amount of stuff that has come home from school over the last term, summer term, and then the term before Christmas, or you're too notoriously admin heavy.
Speaker B:There's always something on a Friday thing.
Speaker B:And obviously I have lots of children, so lots of different schools that obviously never aligned.
Speaker B:So I just have the conversation with the kids and, like, I need to concentrate on these, these and these things because we want to do X, Y, Z.
Speaker B:So that might be.
Speaker B:I'm concentrating this week on taking you to your football practice.
Speaker B:I need to do my work.
Speaker B:So we've Got enough cash to be able to do the things that we've got planned in the summer.
Speaker B:And I also need to take your dad out because we haven't connected for a while.
Speaker B:So I need to do that this week.
Speaker B:So we stay married.
Speaker B:Where do you want me to fit this in?
Speaker B:Or do you want to take that?
Speaker B:And I do this more with the older kids or at the weekend, we've got this, this, and this plan.
Speaker B:So we could cancel one of those things to do that homework challenge that you want to do.
Speaker B:Do you want to do that?
Speaker B:And then the agency is back on them, rather than us just being like, oh, we forgot to do that.
Speaker B:I try and say, we can do that, but it'll mean that we have to not do this other thing, because I'm not over scheduling us because of a school demand.
Speaker B:And I spoke to a head teacher about, like, the home learning challenges.
Speaker B:They were a big thing for my kids.
Speaker B:And she said, oh, it's because we want parents to connect with their children.
Speaker B:I was like, but I connect with my children in another way, not just building a castle.
Speaker B:And actually, that just adds stress to my entire house because now we've got craft stuff on the kitchen table, which means we can't eat there because building a castle doesn't take an hour.
Speaker B:And then if they don't do it, they're stressed.
Speaker B:If they do do it, they're stressed because they've not done the things that they actually want to do.
Speaker B:Who's actually getting anything out of this?
Speaker B:And it's the same with sports days.
Speaker B:Like, who's getting anything out of that?
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:But yeah, they couldn't answer and just said that's what they need to do.
Speaker B:So, yeah, we.
Speaker B:We choose what we're doing.
Speaker B:And now my kids are a bit older.
Speaker B:Some of the older siblings help, so they.
Speaker B:They connect over these things.
Speaker B:It's not always us, but that is because we have multiple children.
Speaker B:And some of the older ones enjoy crafting with their younger siblings.
Speaker B:So sometimes they take it on, but not often.
Speaker B:And, yeah, I choose to connect to my children the way my children want to be connected to.
Speaker B:And that's not always school homework.
Speaker B:And sometimes it is, and when it is, that's when we connect that way, too.
Speaker A:Yeah, I get why that would be a stance that the schools have, because, you know, I'm sure there are kids where their parents don't potentially have the time or the inclination to sit down and connect with them in that way.
Speaker A:I would imagine that's true.
Speaker A:But as a catch, all yeah, I'm not surprised that they couldn't answer your questions.
Speaker A:And I love that with the older kids, that idea of.
Speaker A:It's a way of kind of sharing that mental load, isn't it?
Speaker A:I think that when you were talking about sort of, you know, okay, well, these are the things that I have to do, and this is why.
Speaker A:And we can potentially cancel this so that we can do this thing you want to do.
Speaker A:Would you like to do that?
Speaker A:I think that's so great.
Speaker A:I think that's such a great way of sharing the mental load, for starters, instead of sitting there spiraling in mum guilt because you can't physically do everything.
Speaker A:And also, you know, teaching, like, reasoning skills, teaching that idea that you don't have to do everything and you especially don't have to do things just because somebody else demands them of you.
Speaker A:I think that that's really, really important.
Speaker A:Obviously, there are contexts in which you do have to do things when people demand things of you, for example, when you're at work or things like that.
Speaker A:But yeah, I think that idea of, okay, well, you know, if we.
Speaker A:If none of us want to do it and we don't have time to do it and it's going to mean that we can't do something else, then why are we doing it?
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:And this actually comes back to the whole thing.
Speaker B:So my eldest doing GCSE is.
Speaker B:I was really worried that he wasn't going to buckle down and do them before because of some of the choices he was making.
Speaker B:And we've had lots of conversations over the summer, like, why we have to do this subject that he doesn't understand.
Speaker B:Not that he doesn't understand the subjects, he just doesn't see the point in it.
Speaker B:He doesn't understand why he needs to learn particular subjects because it's useful.
Speaker B:I was like, you need these grades to go to college and you want to go to college, like, get a job if you want, but you want to do that.
Speaker B:So if you want to do that, you have to hit these targets.
Speaker B:And because that's what you need in order to be able to get to college.
Speaker B:And to do that means that you have to study this subject because that's what you're doing.
Speaker B:And it's got through to him like he is.
Speaker B:He's asked for some more work.
Speaker B:He's trying to get the grades up so he can get into college because he wants to do it.
Speaker B:And I think if you could connect to your children on what they want and trust them to make their own decisions on what it is they want, everything else just falls into place because that's human nature.
Speaker B:It's when you start putting things on them that they don't want and then they start pushing back on you and then you dig your heels in and like, no, you need to study because this, that, the other.
Speaker B:Without tapping to what they actually want and desire, it just becomes a battle of stubbornness.
Speaker B:And my entire house is stubborn.
Speaker B:So that isn't a place I want to live in.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, trying to get to what is it you want?
Speaker B:I always try and bring that back because I want them to have agency.
Speaker B:I think there's a lot in the world that takes our agency away.
Speaker B:Social media, some of the systems that we are in, particularly in the West, I think tend to take agency away or stop people realizing that they have agency.
Speaker B:So I'm always trying to remind my children, they are their own people, they can make their own decision.
Speaker B:I'm here to guide them.
Speaker B:Sometimes I will override their decisions because that is what being a parent is.
Speaker B:And until they're 18, I have responsibility over them.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So if they choose to not go to school today, that is being overridden.
Speaker B:But some days I don't override it.
Speaker B:Some days I actually consider, okay, you are burnt out, you do need a break, we will allow that.
Speaker B:But yeah, my 8 year old at the minute has started his new school and would quite happily override the going to school decision every day if he could and just play at his PlayStation.
Speaker B:I have to step in there and.
Speaker A:That'S very much where I'm at with.
Speaker B:My 5 year old.
Speaker A:You know, he, I'm not too concerned about his agency.
Speaker A:If anything, he thinks he's an adult.
Speaker A:So the challenge I have is to sort of preserve that in him because I do think it's important, you know, I think that critical thinking is important.
Speaker A:I think questioning is important.
Speaker A:You know, not teaching that we do things just because someone says, you know, because I said so, but also when they're five or eight, that, you know, you have to override decisions.
Speaker A:Um, and yeah, that's something that I find really challenging actually is kind of keeping that alive and fostering that in him, but also simultaneously making it very clear that I am the boss, for want of a better word.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And sometimes I'm like, this gets harder the older they get.
Speaker B:So like the 15 year old now I look at him, he looks like an adult.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:A lot of the time I have to physically remind myself he's still a child.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:This person in front of you is still a child because sometimes he'll say something that is so triggering.
Speaker B:And as an adult, I would react differently to reminding myself, he's still a kid.
Speaker B:His brain is still working out how things happen.
Speaker B:Not everything is lined up and wired up correctly.
Speaker B:Yes, he's going to say things that hurt you sometimes.
Speaker B:It is not personal.
Speaker B:I have to remind myself of that so my emotions don't run me, because I am an adult and I do have the capacity to be able to make reasonable responses, not to reactions, but it doesn't come naturally.
Speaker B:I have to work on that.
Speaker B:But also, me and Kieran again, when the eldest was making shit decisions, we had a quotation that, what do we do?
Speaker B:I don't want to.
Speaker B:I don't want to ground him.
Speaker B:I don't think it works.
Speaker B:I don't think putting a wall around him is going to make him feel safe.
Speaker B:That doesn't feel safe.
Speaker B:That feels like I'm being trapped and that actually feels very unsafe for me as.
Speaker B:As a person.
Speaker B:I hate feeling trapped.
Speaker B:So why would I do that to my child when I want him to make nicer, better decisions?
Speaker B:He's not going to do that if he feels unsafe.
Speaker B:Do we connect to a place?
Speaker B:And I said, however, on the other hand, When I was 15, I had no boundaries.
Speaker B:My mum was in a place where she was going through a very messy divorce.
Speaker B:She wasn't there as a parent for me at that point.
Speaker B:And that also didn't make me feel safe.
Speaker B:That felt like no one was looking out for me and making sure I was safe.
Speaker B:And that didn't feel safe either.
Speaker B:So, yeah, we need to find a way that we can put something in that makes him feel like we're strong and we are.
Speaker B:We're holding you to account and there is boundaries here that you will not cross, whilst also not making him feel like he shackled and chained him.
Speaker B:It was so hard to work out that balance.
Speaker A:But we did it.
Speaker B:He gets an allowance.
Speaker B:He wasn't allowed cash because of what he was buying with his cash, but we still gave him a voucher for a shop so he could go to Primark and buy what he wanted, but he wasn't allowed cash for a month.
Speaker B:And I said, because I don't trust you right now, you need to build that trust back up.
Speaker B:He did build a trust back up and he's now back on allowing to be having cash.
Speaker B:But it was that I didn't ground him because what did that teach him?
Speaker B:I'm just going to lock you up when you make a bad decision, it didn't make sense to me.
Speaker B:So, yeah, we did it a different way.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:I think it's a. I think there's a lot to be said for appropriate consequences rather than just kind of blanket punishment.
Speaker A:So, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, okay.
Speaker A:You can't be trusted with cash right now.
Speaker A:So inappropriate consequences, that the cash is taken away from you.
Speaker A:That makes sense.
Speaker A:I mean, that's a logical step as opposed to just.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like you say, well, you've made a bad choice, so we're locking you up and you're not allowed out at all.
Speaker A:There's no logic in that, is there?
Speaker A:So how could you expect a 15 year old to see the logic if.
Speaker B:He feels disconnected to the family unit?
Speaker B:He's already making decisions.
Speaker B:As soon as we released him back into the wild, he'd have gone straight back to those disconnected decision making.
Speaker A:It's a hard balance.
Speaker A:I think that one.
Speaker A:It's a really tough balance to strike.
Speaker B:There's that word again.
Speaker A:We need a rebrand.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I think balance in parenting is true.
Speaker B:I think balance in this.
Speaker B:What we hold with both hands, what the life and the work and relationships and whatever else we've got going on.
Speaker B:I think it's unrealistic to think we can balance that when the load is.
Speaker B:Is more than what we can hold.
Speaker B:Like, I think.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:There is too much for us to hold in today's society all at once.
Speaker B:So the fact that we can think that we can balance it is just.
Speaker B:It's just a ridiculous notion.
Speaker B:Things down.
Speaker B:And sometimes we have to pick other things up and sometimes we just have to forget some things completely exist for a season of our life.
Speaker B:And maybe we'll come back to that.
Speaker B:Maybe we will.
Speaker B:Maybe we'll have moved past it.
Speaker A:But I think that is.
Speaker A:That is it.
Speaker B:It's this constantly letting go, picking back up, holding onto something, but never too tightly that you suffocate it.
Speaker B:That, for me, is what the balance is.
Speaker B:Making sure that your load is not too heavy.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Letting go of what you can let go of and prioritizing with intention the things that you want to hold onto.
Speaker B:That was beautiful.
Speaker B:We need that, like as a quote above my desk.
Speaker A:I'll see what I can do.
Speaker A:As your Christmas gift sorted.
Speaker A:I'll design it for you.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Should we leave it there?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think that's a beautiful way to finish this episode.
Speaker A:This has been with both hands.
