Mothering Without a Map
In this episode of With Both Hands, we’re talking about what it really feels like to mother without a map – the exhaustion, the overwhelm, and the burnout that so many of us quietly carry. We share our own experiences and reflections on why community matters so profoundly, and why none of us are meant to navigate this journey alone.
From the pressures of social media to the impact of technology on parenting, we explore how motherhood is evolving and how crucial it is to find your village, especially among other women who truly understand and share your experiences.
This conversation serves as a gentle reminder that asking for help isn’t a sign of weakness; it’s essential. Mothering was never meant to be a solo act, and together we can find more resilience, connection and ease in the messy, beautiful journey of raising our families.
Transcript
Welcome to With Both Hands.
Speaker A:I'm Claire.
Speaker B:And I'm Laura.
Speaker A:And today we're going to be talking about mothering without a map.
Speaker A:We're going to be talking about burnout.
Speaker A:We're going to be talking about why mothers are never meant to hold everything that they do alone.
Speaker A:We're going to be talking about community, the village, and reparenting yourself whilst parenting children.
Speaker B:That's wild.
Speaker A:That is wild.
Speaker B:That's my favorite, my favourite thing ever.
Speaker A:So we have been talking and thinking a lot about burnout.
Speaker A:This seems to be a very prevalent conversation at the moment amongst mothers, but women in general and people in general, really, although I think men are maybe a little bit less vocal about it, obviously.
Speaker A:This podcast is With Both Hands.
Speaker A:We talk about the amount of things that women and mothers specifically hold.
Speaker A:So why are so many women burning out?
Speaker A:Is this a new phenomenon?
Speaker A:Is this something that is a result of modern motherhood?
Speaker A:Do we think this is something that's always been present?
Speaker A:It's just that we have more access to the conversations now.
Speaker A:Why are so many women burning out?
Speaker B:Well, that's a question and a half, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't think we're going to get to the answer, but I hope that this episode gives some insight into our lived experience of this.
Speaker B:What we found has helped and what hasn't helped and whatever else uncovers as we chat through.
Speaker B:But yeah, burnout is a thing and I don't think it is just women.
Speaker B:I think it is.
Speaker B:I think it's a societal, Western societal thing.
Speaker B:I think predominantly, I think it's parents in general as well.
Speaker B:I don't think it is just the mother who feel it, depending on how your family is made up.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it is a huge thing and I think part of it is the fact that we are not only doing things for the first time, like when you first have a child, it's the first child you've had and then you're on this path of raising this child, but also you're raising this child whilst the world watches.
Speaker B:We've never been parents in the age of technology, in the age of CCTV and the age of people videoing their child, but in the background you're there and being aware that everything ever is being captured.
Speaker B:And I think that makes the burden on parents so much heavier than past generations.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I'm excited to unpack that today.
Speaker A:Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker B:Let's start the village thing, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, let's start with the village.
Speaker B:Okay, so let's start with you.
Speaker B:So let's roll you back to your pregnancy with your first child.
Speaker B:And I really want to understand what you thought would happen when you had your first child in regard to the village that we are shown maybe on the TV or on social media versus your reality, like what actually showed up or didn't show up.
Speaker B:And give us some context.
Speaker A:Okay, so.
Speaker A:Well, my experience with being pregnant with my first child and having my first child, there's a lot of context to that, really.
Speaker A:So at the time I wasn't intending to fall pregnant and the relationship I was in was not conducive to that.
Speaker A:It was a relationship that I needed to leave.
Speaker A:So when I found out I was pregnant, I had just left my full time employment to go fully self employed and I was in a situation where I was living down south and I was on my own physically anyway.
Speaker A:So throughout the pregnancy I was in a very chaotic and tumultuous time in my life.
Speaker A:Despite that, I loved being pregnant.
Speaker A:I loved the experience of being pregnant with both my kids, actually.
Speaker A: rst child was born in January: Speaker A:So in terms of the village, obviously what I had expected to be there was removed as it was for everybody who had a child at that time.
Speaker A:I feel very, very lucky that he was born before we went into lockdown because my birth experience was different to, I know the experience a lot of women had later in that year where we were living.
Speaker A:I had tried to establish some networks and some form of a village.
Speaker A:I joined things like prenatal yoga class where I'd made some friends.
Speaker A:I had a doula for my birth with my son and she was a really good source of sort of meeting up with other mums.
Speaker A:So I tried to put those pieces in place.
Speaker A:But obviously when we went into lockdown, all of that was taken away.
Speaker A:So that was an incredibly isolating experience for obvious reasons.
Speaker A:I was also in a house in the south of England, nowhere near anybody, any friends or family, and in a relationship that I needed to get out of.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that experience was very, very isolating and quite scary.
Speaker A:Looking back, the place I was in, it was quite a scary place.
Speaker A:But there's a lot of context to that.
Speaker A:So I recognize that's not, you know, within the parameters of what people would consider to be a typical postpartum journey.
Speaker A:With my daughter, I feel like that was very, very different.
Speaker A:So living in the north of England, living very close to my parents who are very involved with childcare for Both the kids.
Speaker A:And I think that the second time round, you obviously have learned a lot of lessons from the first time and the importance of having that supportive network.
Speaker A:And I think that in my experience, there's a lot of talk around mothering without a village and how the village has been lost and the village now is found online, or there's a lot of conversation around people feeling very isolated and like they don't have support.
Speaker A:And I think a lot of times that turns to a bit of a conversation around how specifically the male person in a relationship, husband, boyfriend, partner, whatever, needs to step up more and be that village.
Speaker A:And I think that you and I are both very lucky in that respect, that I think we both have that.
Speaker A:But I actually feel like that's not the answer.
Speaker A:I feel like that's not the missing piece.
Speaker A:I think the piece that's missing with the village having been lost is the female support.
Speaker A:You need other women around you who have been through what you have been through or are going through what you are going through.
Speaker A:That's the support need, I think, as a new mother.
Speaker A:And that's something which can be quite difficult to find, and it's incredibly important.
Speaker A:And I think that the lesson that I learned is the importance of finding other women to form that village on the basis of, yes, having a shared experience of motherhood, but also having other shared experiences and other ways that you can resonate with each other.
Speaker A:Because I think that when you're in that immediate postpartum phase and you.
Speaker A:It can feel like you're falling apart and you don't know who you are, the pieces of your identity are in flux.
Speaker A:You're rebuilding, you're transitioning, you're in this huge sort of period of chaotic rebirth.
Speaker A:And I think that if you can find those women, whether that's online, whether that's in real life, to form that village, and they are people that you resonate with on a level other than as the fact that you've both recently given birth or have given birth at some point in the past, that can really help you to validate those pieces of yourself that are in transition and figure out how those pieces fit back together as the new version of you.
Speaker A:And I think that's really important.
Speaker A:And I think that's something that I've prioritised really hard the second time round after having my daughter.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think my experience was probably different, and I actually think that first.
Speaker B:That first child for me, was unplanned.
Speaker B:I was young.
Speaker B:I'd been with my now husband for four months when we got pregnant.
Speaker B:So he's like, really not.
Speaker B:Was not on the cards.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of parents, I might be stereotyping here, but I feel like a lot of first time parents that I know were in that situation, like they didn't choose it kind of chose them because it is such a big decision, like we can plan and control so much in our lives that fate can't really happen as easy as maybe it could do for our grandparents say.
Speaker B:And I think that's a good thing.
Speaker B:But I also think, like, would I choose to turn my life upside down, be homeless and pregnant at 20 when my career was just starting?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:But I did it anyway because I was pregnant and I didn't have a house.
Speaker B:And yeah, we lived through that.
Speaker B:And I think that resilience and actually having something to live for can help you put one foot in front of the other.
Speaker B:And that was like my first taste of what to be a mother is.
Speaker B:It's finding solutions when you feel like there is no solution when you're crying in.
Speaker B:Like, I remember crying at this government or council worker because we needed a house and she was like, well, you're not priority.
Speaker B:I was like, well, what is priority?
Speaker B:Because I'm about to have a baby and I don't have a house and I can't get a private rental because I am about to have a baby and my partner is at uni, so no one will rent to us because we'll be on benefits.
Speaker B:And then there was this narrative that I was already being fed as well.
Speaker B:If you can't afford a child, you shouldn't have a child.
Speaker B:I was like, but I can afford the child once he's here.
Speaker B:But when I can't work because I'm birthing said child, I can't.
Speaker B:I remember feeling guilty about that already.
Speaker B:So it was very isolating for me as well because, yeah, I just felt like no one really wanted us, no one would help us, no one would support us.
Speaker B:I was asking for help and no one was offering it.
Speaker B:And then a friend of a friend, I think it was one of Kieran's mum's friend actually provided us with a house that we rented off her and it came out of nowhere again, surrendering.
Speaker B:Like, I didn't knock on her door, I wasn't crying in her living room.
Speaker B:It just arrived when it needed to arrive.
Speaker B:And just trust in that process was a big thing for me.
Speaker B:But we didn't have the village.
Speaker B:I remember ringing my midwife or no, the Midwife comes around, isn't it?
Speaker B:This is the things that also, no one ever told me.
Speaker B:So some things when I had my first baby that I just did not know.
Speaker B:I did not know.
Speaker B:We bled for weeks after.
Speaker B:No, I didn't know that.
Speaker A:Me neither.
Speaker B:I didn't know that your hormones dropped.
Speaker B:I saw a graph the other day of the hormones and it's like we basically build hormones, build hormones, build hormones throughout our entire pregnancy and then they crash to and it's like a severe drop in the first two weeks after having a baby.
Speaker B:I didn't know that.
Speaker B:I didn't know that feeling the blues was a thing that I'd just cry for no reason.
Speaker B:And then I also had this shame because I was a young mum and I'd throw my life away and I would never be successful because I'd had a baby young.
Speaker B:I had all that as well as having this baby.
Speaker B:And I remember the midwife come around.
Speaker B:So the midwife does come around to your house after you've given birth, which, again, I didn't know.
Speaker B:I did not know that that was a thing.
Speaker B:She came around, I think it was like day three, day three visit.
Speaker B:And she asked, like, why are all the nappies there?
Speaker B:And I'd literally lined all the nappies up because I didn't understand what was going on.
Speaker B:I thought he was dying.
Speaker B:I didn't get what was going on in these nappies and I needed us to look at them.
Speaker B:I remember saying to her, I know how to keep a dog alive, because when you buy a dog, they come with a leaflet and they tell you, this dog needs feeding at this time and this dog needs this amount of food and this dog needs brushing once a day, and this dog needs a walk twice a day.
Speaker B:And I get this lethal.
Speaker B:And it tells me how to look after this dog.
Speaker B:No one gave me that for the baby.
Speaker B:And she was like, you just need to trust your instincts.
Speaker B:And I was like, yeah, but what if they're wrong?
Speaker B:And this midwife was really good because she was like, they're not wrong.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker B:Just trust yourself.
Speaker B:You will know what to do.
Speaker B:And he's now 15 and still very much alive.
Speaker B:But it was so scary because I didn't have that mother and the circle and the women who have been there before and done it to tell me I was doing a good job.
Speaker B:And I also didn't have the confidence to ask.
Speaker B:And I did have women around me that had had children, but I don't know whether it was my age or whether it's just because we've been fed this narrative of hyper individualism where we should be able to do it all on our own.
Speaker B:So if you can't, you're doing it wrong.
Speaker B:I think there might have been elements of that.
Speaker B:When I was 20, yeah, I didn't ask for help, but then fast forward had my daughter and that was a similar experience, if I'm honest.
Speaker B: Like, this is: Speaker B:And again, I was a workaholic.
Speaker B:So I was in the corporate and I think that is a big thing for me, that I was in the corporate sphere.
Speaker B:So I needed to have a child, I needed to be pregnant and I needed to remember that being pregnant is not to be ill.
Speaker B:So I had to turn up to work and be who I've always been.
Speaker B:Even though I had, like, pain in my pelvis and whatever else is going on.
Speaker B:Boobs are growing to a ridiculous size that now don't fit in any of your bowsers that you had.
Speaker B:But you had to just show up and be who you've always been before you were growing this child, which kind of suppresses all the feelings that you maybe are feeling.
Speaker B:And then I had her.
Speaker B:Her whole pregnancy was pretty traumatic.
Speaker B:Not because of pregnancy, but because of other things that was going on in our lives.
Speaker B:I lost my brother when I was like 20 weeks pregnant.
Speaker B:And her pregnancy was pretty complex anyway.
Speaker B:But also I was grieving, so I was grieving and birthing all at the same time, which is a bloody complex mix at 24 years old.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I went back to work pretty early again, like I had her in the March.
Speaker B:I was back in work by August.
Speaker B:By my third child, we were starting to understand maybe we could do with a bit more of a village.
Speaker B:But still didn't really know how to build that.
Speaker B:And again, I went back to work pretty quick.
Speaker B:And then we had my fourth child in Covid.
Speaker B:And actually that was the easiest one for me because there was no expectation.
Speaker B:There was no expectation for me to be having to be X, Y, Z.
Speaker B:So he was the first baby I had where I spent like three weeks topless on the sofa trying to establish breastfeeding.
Speaker B:Like, he was my first one that I actually slowed down to be the mother that I should maybe have been with.
Speaker B:Maybe three as well.
Speaker B: Yes, that was the August of: Speaker B:I still went back to work in November, but it was working from home time whistling Covid so I could still breastfeed him.
Speaker B:He was still very much around as I was doing the corporate career.
Speaker B: And then get to July: Speaker B:I am not coping.
Speaker B:I am in severe burnout.
Speaker B:And it's a culmination of all those years where I haven't asked for help, I haven't asked for support.
Speaker B:I've just kept putting one foot front of the other to prove something to someone that just because I'm a mum doesn't mean that I can't have it all.
Speaker B: July: Speaker B:By this point, I am already a mum of four.
Speaker B:But I haven't done things in a healthy way.
Speaker B:I've done things in a I need to prove my point way.
Speaker B: And since: Speaker B:And I also don't want my children to see that.
Speaker B:I don't want my kids to know that that is to be a mother is to be burnt out.
Speaker B:To be a parent is to be having daily panic attacks.
Speaker B:Like that isn't.
Speaker B:Yeah, isn't it?
Speaker B:And there is another way.
Speaker A:And I think that's so important because I struggle to ask for help too.
Speaker A:And I think that's a really common thing.
Speaker A:I think a lot of us grew up witnessing our mothers not be anything other than our mothers.
Speaker A:You know, not asking for help, doing everything and being martyred really, to motherhood and not having it modelled another way that you don't have to do that.
Speaker A:You don't have to push yourself to burnout.
Speaker A:It's okay to ask for help.
Speaker A:It's needed.
Speaker A:People throughout history have not raised families alone.
Speaker A:The village structure is there for a reason.
Speaker A:It's not something you can do in isolation.
Speaker A:It's not something you can do.
Speaker A:It's not an individualistic task, raising a family.
Speaker A:I think children need things from different people and that can look any number of different ways.
Speaker A:Families can be formed in a number of different ways and extended circles.
Speaker A:But I think children need things from different people.
Speaker A:You can't be everything to another person in any context, especially as a mother.
Speaker B:I think that comes on to what you were saying earlier as well.
Speaker B:Like, we both have great husbands that are great dads to our children as well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they can't be everything.
Speaker B:And I think that is like, I see a lot of narrative of, or if my husband did more, I could do X.
Speaker B:Or if my husband did that, or if my partner, whatever it is, there's always this.
Speaker B:If someone else did something more.
Speaker B:Yes, I have A great partner.
Speaker B:But I am also a great partner that we work in partnership with each other.
Speaker B:And I think there's this notion that there needs to be other people involved because we can't be everything to each other and everything to our children.
Speaker B:You have to involve with people.
Speaker B:And one thing that I've learned in particular is that that doesn't have to be family.
Speaker B:So your village does not have to be your mum, it doesn't have to be your auntie, your cousins, your sisters.
Speaker B:It can be someone that you only met yesterday, you vibe with them and you can ask them for help and they will come round.
Speaker B:I think for a long time I thought it was my family's duty to help me out.
Speaker B:And when they didn't, I was like, oh, well, I'm alone then when actually that isn't true, you can go and find it.
Speaker B:But it's a two way thing.
Speaker B:And I think there's a lot of people that think the village is old to them and don't realize that it's a relationship building thing.
Speaker B:That's a two way thing.
Speaker B:And you need to be given your village as much as you're taking from your village.
Speaker B:And I think that's something that might have been lost.
Speaker B:I think people are still waiting for the neighbors to come around with pieces.
Speaker B:But are you taking a pie to your neighbor?
Speaker B:And it's kind of like we have to start seeing the give and the take, not just the take, all the time.
Speaker B:And I think that's one of the things that I'm trying to instill in my children.
Speaker B:But we will see.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker A:It's a shift, isn't it?
Speaker A:Because I guess traditionally you wouldn't have had to work to build a village that was just.
Speaker A:It was there.
Speaker A:That's how people lived and operated.
Speaker A:Still is in a lot of cultures that aren't Western capitalist societies.
Speaker A:But that idea that you might have to change tack and actually construct the thing that you need to hold you in that time is not something that people are potentially aware of.
Speaker A:I think until you're in it, you possibly don't really understand how isolating postpartum particularly can be and how intense it can be as well.
Speaker A:Like you say the hormone drop is wild.
Speaker B:It's wild.
Speaker B:Wild.
Speaker A:Your hair falls out wild.
Speaker A:I had no idea about the hair thing.
Speaker A:I remember that.
Speaker A:And then you get like little regrowth bits.
Speaker A:You feel gross.
Speaker A:Your hair falls out like it.
Speaker A:There's so much stuff.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:My regrowth has only just started happening, literally.
Speaker B:The last six months.
Speaker B:Like, my hairdresser's like, what's going on with your hair?
Speaker B:And it's finally regrowing.
Speaker B:So I am now the longest I've ever been unpregnant in my adult life.
Speaker B:So my youngest is now five.
Speaker B:And it's literally the longest I've ever not been pregnant since I was 20.
Speaker B:And my hair is finally starting to go back.
Speaker A:Why is everyone not talking about this?
Speaker A:Why are women not shouting for, oh, hey, by the way, did you know all your hair is gonna fall out?
Speaker B:Like, prepare people for this shit.
Speaker B:It's such a shock for me.
Speaker B:I couldn't prepare anyone because I didn't.
Speaker B:I didn't know.
Speaker B:Like, when you have them young again, it comes back to this surrender.
Speaker B:I have no idea what it is to be a woman and not pregnant.
Speaker B:I'm learning that now.
Speaker A:You're learning that now?
Speaker A:Talk about the journey.
Speaker B:Finally get to be an adult.
Speaker A:Not.
Speaker B:Just a baby machine.
Speaker A:Yeah, you joke, but I.
Speaker A:It can feel like you're a baby machine when you're in the middle of it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I've had two planned children and two accidental.
Speaker B:One was kind of planned.
Speaker B:Well, I wasn't expecting it.
Speaker B:And one was just a complete and utter.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:The moment.
Speaker B:Which was our first.
Speaker B:But you have the nine months or 10 months in our case.
Speaker B:We're both women who hold on to our babies a bit longer than what society would say is normal.
Speaker B:I'll say 10 months.
Speaker B:So you have 10 months of creating a baby where you've got all these hormones and things are changing your body and everything feels a bit wild.
Speaker B:And I hated pregnancy, all four of them.
Speaker B:Hated every single second.
Speaker B:Then you have the birth.
Speaker B:Magical.
Speaker B:And then you enter this new period of life.
Speaker B:And I remember just after we'd had my first, I think he's about five days old.
Speaker B:And I had to go to Mother Care, which is a shop that was available.
Speaker A:Excellent.
Speaker B:It was excellent.
Speaker B:It was just.
Speaker B:I'm really sad about the care because I went there with my baby at five days old because he would not sleep.
Speaker B:And I was like, I need to get something that he's going to sleep in because I can't live my life like this.
Speaker B:This has been five days.
Speaker B:I already feel like I'm being tortured.
Speaker B:I need something different.
Speaker B:And I went to Mother Care and they sat me down on a chair and they made me a cup of tea and they helped me pick a Moses basket for him.
Speaker B:And I felt so mothered.
Speaker B:It was wild.
Speaker B:But I also remember looking around and thinking, wow, the world is still going.
Speaker B:Because I'd spent the last five days wondering what just happened and how have I now got ownership of this thing that is a human being that looks so perfect and has five, 10, sorry, 10 beautiful fingers and 10 toes and just this beautiful little human being.
Speaker B:And being in mother care with this lady who'd made me a cup of tea and looking at the world and like, how is it still turning and how is everyone still going about their business when my world has completely changed.
Speaker B:Like, completely.
Speaker B:It was one of those slow down periods and I wish we could box it up because it's actually so precious.
Speaker B:That period kind of lasts, I'd say a good three months.
Speaker B:Like that fourth trimester.
Speaker B:No one was talking about fourth trimester 15 years ago.
Speaker B:I think people talk about it a bit more now.
Speaker B:But it's a thing like you.
Speaker B:It's a whole.
Speaker B:You don't quite feel like you, but you don't quite feel like a mother.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You're in this in between period and you are like.
Speaker B:I remember thinking, how is life still life thing?
Speaker B:Because my life's not lifing anymore.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't know what's going on.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you're up at 4am staring at this baby who's hiccuping at you and not going to sleep.
Speaker B:And it's just looking at you like it's not sad.
Speaker B:There's this moment where like, they're awake and really content because you fed them them and they're just awake and you're like, I should go to sleep.
Speaker B:But how can I go to sleep when I know they're awake and I'm missing out on this.
Speaker B:Like, it's such a precious time.
Speaker B:Like, if I could have those 4am moments with my kids again.
Speaker B:Oh, I'd love to.
Speaker B:I'm definitely romanticizing now because I get a full night's sleep.
Speaker B:You are.
Speaker B:But not that they can't be magical.
Speaker B:They were magic.
Speaker A:Like they can be when it's just you and them and the world's dark and silent and it's just you and this tiny person you made staring at you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Not crying.
Speaker B:I don't like it when they're crying at you.
Speaker B:That's hard.
Speaker B:They're really hard moments, but it's when they're really content and just staring.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:My daughter was really good at that.
Speaker B:She was a real content baby and she just look out and look at you for hours on end.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:My fourth different story.
Speaker B:He just.
Speaker B:He just mainly cried a lot.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Not romanticizing.
Speaker B:His newborn at all.
Speaker A:Never again.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That is now why I will never have another child after his newborn stage.
Speaker B:But yeah, same.
Speaker B:It is wild to me, like how, how life changing it is and how understate.
Speaker B:I don't know if it's understated, but it feels very brushed into the carpet.
Speaker B:It feels like, well, this.
Speaker B:You can't be struggling because all the women ever before you have done this or how dare you.
Speaker B:And it's again, like in, in work, I remember people saying, it's not an illness, it's not an illness.
Speaker B:But I have been sick seven times this morning.
Speaker B:Like if I had vomited that many times because of a sickness bug, I wouldn't be expected being work right now.
Speaker B:Yet being pregnant is not an illness.
Speaker B:So I am in work, but I haven't eaten a full meal in days because my body won't allow me to keep food inside of me.
Speaker B:I'm so lucky that I didn't have that throughout, like my entire pregnancy.
Speaker B:I had it for like, I want to say 10 days was like where it was intense and it was just my daughter.
Speaker B:My boys didn't do it to me, but my daughter did.
Speaker B:But yeah, I had to turn up to work and just crack on.
Speaker A:There's validity in that comment.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Every woman who's ever had a child has been through that experience.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:The problem isn't the experience of the pregnancy.
Speaker A:The problem is the fact that women wouldn't have been expected to then go into an office and pretend that they hadn't been sick seven times that morning.
Speaker B:Yeah, wild.
Speaker A:Or women were up at 4am with a screaming baby.
Speaker A:But then the rest of that day would just have slept with the baby and fed the baby and there would have been other people around to hold the baby while the woman, I don't know went to the bathroom or washed her face for five minutes or had a snack.
Speaker A:People bringing food.
Speaker A:The difference, people say that, well, you just need to, you know, woman up and get on with it.
Speaker A:Because every other woman who's ever had a child has been through this experience.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:But we are in a period now where women are being expected to function in a way that women who have, who are in the process of birthing humans have never been expected to function before.
Speaker A:And that's the problem.
Speaker B:And I also think there's even more to dissect on this as well, because I've only recently been made aware of things like a night nanny.
Speaker B:So I come from the north of the uk, working class background.
Speaker B:We don't have access I don't.
Speaker B:Someone asked me the other day why I don't have a nanny.
Speaker B:Why don't you have a nanny?
Speaker A:Like it's just a thing.
Speaker B:Because it's not a thing here.
Speaker B:I don't even know how I'd get a nanny.
Speaker B:Like in London you can get a nanny pretty easily.
Speaker A:I don't know anybody that's got a.
Speaker B:Nanny but in near me.
Speaker B:No, I don't know where, I don't know where nannies hang out, I don't know where.
Speaker B:I don't know where I'd find one.
Speaker B:And so I'm in this.
Speaker B:Yeah, we've used the nurseries and childminders to look after our children and yeah.
Speaker B:Like it's not worlds within worlds.
Speaker B:I'm a mother who has.
Speaker B:I had my children young, my parents had me young, their parents had them young.
Speaker B:So right now in my family I have five generations alive.
Speaker B:Which is epic.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But also means that my parents aren't retired, they can't look after my children.
Speaker B:They're not there to be in my village because they are still working and their parents were still working.
Speaker B:So my grandparents were still working when I became a mother.
Speaker B:That village isn't there yet and also where I live isn't there yet.
Speaker B:So I think it's not just that mothers weren't doing that, it's also different types of mothers and it's the socio economic backgrounds of mothers that weren't there before.
Speaker B:And then my grandma, bless her, she used to send her kids out to just play all day and we can't do that anymore either.
Speaker B:So she used to go to work and the older kids would look after the younger kids.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And again back to this.
Speaker B:We're being watched on everything and everyone, everything's being videoed and we're being held account to things our children do rightly or wrongly.
Speaker B:Means that you can't, you can't do that anymore.
Speaker B:Yeah, that isn't an option either.
Speaker B:So we have to, I think we have to parent harder than maybe our parents parents had to parent.
Speaker B:That was a lot of parents in a sentence.
Speaker B:Whilst also working faster because of tech.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So everything needs to be done immediately and can't wait.
Speaker B:Whilst also still having the same experience of birthing and growing and parenting.
Speaker B:I think it needs to be more in open conversation which is why we're here having this conversation now.
Speaker A:Well the thing is that, that part of it is inescapable, isn't it?
Speaker A:Because however much you talk about society, however much you talk about what needs to change what has changed, what needs to be put in place?
Speaker A:There is an inescapable truth to this, which is the physical reality of growing and birthing a human being, and there's no getting away from that.
Speaker A:So that really is the foundation of the conversation.
Speaker A:If you're talking about how to accommodate women more with more equality in the workplace, that's fundamental to the conversation.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:If you're talking about the kind of support that women need, that is fundamental to the conversation.
Speaker A:And I think that you're right.
Speaker A:I think that a lot of time it's dismissed or brushed under the carpet like it's not a valid experience, or like you have a choice about whether or not you suffer with debilitating morning sickness or whether you can't walk after you've given birth for a few days.
Speaker A:There's so many variables, and that's not something which is a constant across different cultures, which I think people don't realize either.
Speaker A:In the majority of cultures in the world, that fourth trimester is honoured as a period of rest.
Speaker A:You know, there's numerous cultures in the world where the expectation is that the mother and the baby will spend the first up to a month sometimes in bed, feeding and bonding and resting and recuperating and healing from the fairly massive physical trauma that is giving birth.
Speaker A:And they are supported in that by their village, people bringing food, people helping with the baby.
Speaker A:That's a reality for some cultures, which is just.
Speaker A:That's just how things are.
Speaker A:And I think that when you think about it like that, that puts in stark perspective what we're expected to, you know, woman up and push through a little bit?
Speaker B:Yeah, it is.
Speaker B:What would we do if we were to have another baby now, saying we, like, we're gonna have one together?
Speaker B:Maybe we will.
Speaker A:It would be an epic baby.
Speaker B:It would be epic.
Speaker B:What would we design?
Speaker B:Like, what would we do?
Speaker B:Like, if there's anyone listening now and they're like, right, okay, that sounds horrendous.
Speaker B:I don't want that.
Speaker B:What should they be doing?
Speaker B:And what would we do differently to make that within the parameters of the.
Speaker A:Current what we're doing?
Speaker B:Yeah, I feel like what we've got available.
Speaker B:Let's give some tips.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:How would we design that if we could.
Speaker A:When I was pregnant with my first, I went to a prenatal yoga class, which is where I found a lot of the village that I managed to put together whilst I was living down south.
Speaker A:And the woman who was teaching that class said, I was late for a class once and I was Stressed.
Speaker A:And I was rushing and I got there and I was like, I'm so sorry.
Speaker A:I'm so sorry I'm late.
Speaker A:I just had this and I had this and I'm feeling so awful.
Speaker A:And she was just like, no one should ever rush a pregnant woman.
Speaker A:They can wait for you.
Speaker A:And I let that live in my head for the duration, the rest of that pregnancy.
Speaker A:I carried it through postpartum.
Speaker A:I don't think I've ever stopped, really.
Speaker A:I'm just like, yeah, what is the rush?
Speaker A:What is the rush?
Speaker A:I think that's something that I would say.
Speaker A:Pregnancy and postpartum particularly, you have to slow down.
Speaker A:You have to.
Speaker A:There is no option.
Speaker A:You are physically slowed down by the.
Speaker A:By the end of pregnancy, particularly in our case, because once you go past.
Speaker B:40 weeks.
Speaker A:There is no fast movement sloth.
Speaker A:Like only with hooves.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Sore and feet are not it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I feel like you are slowed by necessity.
Speaker A:So listen to your body.
Speaker A:There is a period of time where the focus needs to be on rest.
Speaker A:Allow yourself that.
Speaker A:If you can put the pieces in place.
Speaker A:I want to go back to what you were saying about mother care, because I thought that was such a good point.
Speaker A:And it's part of conversations that we've had in the past about third spaces and appropriate places where people might be able to find this village component that's missing.
Speaker A:Because whilst there's a lot to be said for being able to find virtual villages online, I think that's super important.
Speaker A:You know, you and I met online.
Speaker A:I think there is something about being in the real world that can't be replicated.
Speaker A:Like you said, that pulled you out of that bubble.
Speaker A:You were out in the real world with real humans who made you a cup of tea.
Speaker A:And outside of that bubble that you are in in the first few days after having a baby.
Speaker A:And I think that that's really, really important.
Speaker A:It's hard to think of how you would find that if you are a new mum in an isolated position with not a lot of friends and family nearby, not a lot of other women that you know who have babies.
Speaker A:And no third space is available in the community for you to go to.
Speaker A:You might have women you can speak to online, people you can message on WhatsApp at 3am when you're losing your mind.
Speaker A:But where do you find that in real world?
Speaker A:Togetherness, support.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, mother care is gone.
Speaker A:I haven't found a replacement.
Speaker A:I don't think there's anything else that really takes its place around here.
Speaker B:I don't know Whether it's nationwide, but there's a lot of hypnobirthing groups that I think would be a lovely space to start because they tend to be teaching about connecting to your body and your baby and the women in circle.
Speaker B:And I think that's a really.
Speaker B:Like, if I was to have a baby today, that's probably where I would go.
Speaker B:I'd find.
Speaker B:I'd find a hypnobirthing group that I could get involved in and a doula.
Speaker B:Like, they'd be my two.
Speaker B:Two meanies.
Speaker B:And then I think I would really nourish some of the female relationships that maybe I'd been neglecting whilst building my career.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, maybe I would start to invite that back into my life and make sure I was in community with women, wherever it might be.
Speaker B:It might be at the gym, might be your Pilates class.
Speaker B:It might be wherever.
Speaker B:And starting to build on those friendships or someone you see every week and you're like, oh, do you fancy a coffee?
Speaker B:And just seeing if you can try and build some friendships and relationships.
Speaker B:Because what you don't want.
Speaker B:And what I found with my children is I'd end up in baby classes and we just talk about teething and sleep.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm not that person that.
Speaker B:That conversation bores me.
Speaker B:I want to know what's your deepest secret?
Speaker B:What are you here for?
Speaker B:What's the baby taught you already?
Speaker B:I want those deep, meaningful conversations.
Speaker B:I just don't think baby bounce and rhyme provide, like.
Speaker B:No, I agree.
Speaker B:I'd be trying to find the women who can have the deep, dark, shadowy conversations, who can say, this is really shit right now.
Speaker B:Please will you hold my hand?
Speaker B:Or please can you take my baby around the block?
Speaker B:Because I'm going to scream and I don't want to scream and be really open and honest and be able to say, like, I'm finding this hard.
Speaker B:Can you help me?
Speaker B:And I think they're the spaces that I'm missing.
Speaker B:I think there's lots of spaces where we can mask and put our smile on our faces and get out the door and, oh, look, we've achieved today because we're out the door and we've got our face on and our hair's done and our babies dress nicely, but then they go away and they break down at home on their own because that deep connection relationship isn't there.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I'd be trying to create that and I'd also.
Speaker B:And it's something I've done for a lot of my friends that have had first babies.
Speaker B:Is get them instead of getting the baby an outfit for a present or some other nonsense that the baby doesn't need and the mum doesn't want because she has her own taste and she does not want whatever you've just bought her from.
Speaker B:Next.
Speaker B:They don't.
Speaker B:I'm just gonna say that right now.
Speaker B:But what I tend to do is buy them a meal box.
Speaker B:So some kind of like hellofresh or one that's ideally one that's prepped one.
Speaker B:I don't have the time to make it.
Speaker B:If I did, it'd be great, but I'd be lying if I've.
Speaker B:I don't have time to make my own food for my own children, let alone someone else's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because that's just the society we live in.
Speaker B:So buying a week's worth of food for them to get when they need it so it's not delivered to the door.
Speaker B:I will just get them a voucher for one of those for the week where you don't have your shit together.
Speaker B:So here.
Speaker B:Here it is.
Speaker B:Here's a gift for you for that.
Speaker B:That is how I found.
Speaker B:I've been able to help some of my friends.
Speaker A:That's such a good idea.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker B:No one wants another outfit, do they, that they're going to grow out of?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:And the thing is that you get to a point, I think, where.
Speaker A:And this sounds really ungrateful, you know, people are very generous and really kind, but I remember after I'd had my little boy, I met up with another mum and I was like, oh, I love his outfit's really cute.
Speaker A:And she was like, thanks.
Speaker A:She was like, do you know, I've been waiting four weeks to put him in an outfit I actually chose because I've just had to work through all of the things we've been given so people could see him in it.
Speaker B:What is this word?
Speaker A:What is going on?
Speaker A:You had to wait four weeks to put your baby in something you actually chose for a wild.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I know.
Speaker B:My babies lived in baby growers after, like, baby one was in cute outfits all the time.
Speaker B:Baby two, three, four.
Speaker B:Baby grows till they were six months old.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, Cute vests.
Speaker B:Yeah, cute ones.
Speaker B:But baby grows all the way as long as possible.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I'm with you.
Speaker A:And you're right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Meal box is a really good idea.
Speaker A:I think just thinking about what the mum is actually going to need and.
Speaker B:The dad, like, I feel like.
Speaker B:I do feel like dads get pushed to the side, pushed aside.
Speaker B:I watched Kieran Transform throughout.
Speaker B:Like when we had our first.
Speaker B:He was asleep the majority of my labor.
Speaker B:And it really annoyed me.
Speaker B:Really annoyed me.
Speaker B:I was like, what are you doing?
Speaker B:Why are you asleep?
Speaker A:Todd watched the rugby through mine.
Speaker B:It's just me, like, what are you doing?
Speaker A:I mean, he couldn't really help.
Speaker B:That's me.
Speaker B:That was his argument too.
Speaker B:But so much try and be part of it.
Speaker B:But I think what happens with dads is I think they're patronized by the medical professionals.
Speaker B:So I think they get called dad a lot, which is just patronizing.
Speaker B:Like, call them the name.
Speaker B:They'll say things like, make yourself useful.
Speaker B:Like, they're not already useful just being in presence.
Speaker B:So I think they're patronized throughout the whole process.
Speaker B:Anyway.
Speaker B:Yes, this part of me that's like, yes, the mum should be.
Speaker B:Bloody worship.
Speaker B:She's doing everything.
Speaker B:Like, as in actually physically growing the baby.
Speaker B:But we shouldn't patronize the man just because he's a man.
Speaker B:And we shouldn't all patronize the other partner in the relationship because they're really important.
Speaker B:The other thing is, we've had months of bonding with this baby.
Speaker B:They're in us.
Speaker B:We can feel their every movement.
Speaker B:We close our eyes and we can, like.
Speaker B:Well, I don't know if everyone has this, but I used to be able to close my eyes and physically, like, see them in my head.
Speaker B:Like, I could work out where they were in my womb.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Men don't have that.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:They go from not feeling a baby in the tummy to having a baby in their arms instantly, in seconds.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:They don't have all the hormones, they don't have all the physical changes.
Speaker B:They don't have all that.
Speaker B:But their world has just changed.
Speaker B:They have gone from not being a dad to now having a baby to look after where they weren't made aware of it for months and months and months and months and months.
Speaker B:Other than us whining about how heavy we feel, which I did a lot.
Speaker A:Of, and how hungry we are all the time, which I did a lot of.
Speaker B:I once sent Kieran out of a wedding.
Speaker B:I was 36, pregnant with my third, and I sent him out of a wedding to get me cucumber, because I need a cucumber immediately.
Speaker B:And if he did not get me cucumber, they would have been divorced.
Speaker B:So he had to go to Aldi, buy some cucumber nip to my dad's, chop the cucumber.
Speaker B:Because obviously it couldn't just be chomping on a cucumber, like, full cucumber.
Speaker B:Wedding and brought it back in a body bag.
Speaker B:I don't think I've ever loved him more than that moment when he came back with a chopped cucumber.
Speaker B:Peak love.
Speaker A:Yeah, right there.
Speaker B:But yeah, that was a lot.
Speaker B:So they do have.
Speaker B:There is signs that we're going to have a baby like that behavior.
Speaker B:But they don't.
Speaker B:They don't know it.
Speaker B:It's not in them.
Speaker B:And I think they get.
Speaker B:Yeah, I feel like they get left out of it and I do.
Speaker B:If we want them to be co partners and we want our partner to be part of the parenting journey, we have to involve them from then like that.
Speaker B:We can't just be thinking about, what does the mum need?
Speaker B:It's what does the family need?
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:Yeah, do they need?
Speaker B:And that's something that we really struggled with.
Speaker B:Like the more children had.
Speaker B:Yes, we've had four children.
Speaker B:Yes, it's partly our own making, but take a child out for us.
Speaker B:Take two of the children that had climbed the walls because the mum's recovering.
Speaker B:Take them to the park for an hour.
Speaker B:Because that would help the family, not just me, because that also helps the other children feel like they've not just been forgotten about, they're still adults that want to spend time with them and want to see them.
Speaker B:That it's not all just about this new, new baby.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think that is, again, if any of you have friends that are having children and already have children, take the kids out to the park, do something fun with their older kids, because that's just helpful.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think it's interesting that you touched on that idea of responsibility, which I think is something that people who've had children here a lot.
Speaker A:It's the idea of, well, it's your choice to have those children.
Speaker A:Which is absolutely true.
Speaker A:It's absolutely true.
Speaker A:But then it's like, okay, that's fine.
Speaker A:So do you not want to be involved then in your friend's life because they've made a choice to have children?
Speaker B:Or.
Speaker A:Or do you not want to help people that you love when they're in their moment of need?
Speaker A:Because all of our moments of need are as a result of our own choices, really, regardless of the circumstances.
Speaker A:Or do we not want to build a society that values families and children?
Speaker A:Do we not think that that's valid?
Speaker A:So it's all on that person for their individual choice to have children and we just leave them to drown?
Speaker A:Is that the kind of society that we all want to live in?
Speaker A:By that narrative, it makes no sense to Be me.
Speaker B:I'd put a comment on an Instagram reel.
Speaker B:It's got way too many likes that I would like, but it was very similar.
Speaker B:So you might have seen the reel.
Speaker B:It is two parents running and my dad is holding the children and their mom is running and it's like, look how far she goes.
Speaker B:She wasn't holding it all.
Speaker B:And in sentiment, it was a really powerful imagery.
Speaker B:I fully agreed with it.
Speaker B:Like, yes, she would be able to go farther if she wasn't holding everything.
Speaker B:But my comment was, imagine if there was a society that held parents.
Speaker B:Think of how far they could both go.
Speaker B:Why are we constantly putting men versus women in the narrative when that isn't the case?
Speaker B:A lot of men want to be great parents.
Speaker B:A lot of men want to be there for their, their kids and their wife.
Speaker B:Same for like same sex parents.
Speaker B:There's so much.
Speaker B:I remember Kieran, we did share parental leave, whatever it's called, for a couple of our children.
Speaker B:And he wanted to go to the baby groups and he wasn't allowed.
Speaker B:He wasn't allowed to go to the baby.
Speaker B:They were mum and baby.
Speaker B:They weren't dad and baby.
Speaker B:He took our daughter out a couple of times and couldn't change a nappy because there's no changing in men's toilets.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And he's like, I want to be a hands on dad.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I can't change my daughter's nappy.
Speaker B:I'm having to do that on the floor in the restaurant.
Speaker B:Because he wouldn't put her on the floor in the men's toilet.
Speaker B:Because that's just disgusting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like she's 12 now.
Speaker B:So it's changed more.
Speaker B:But we're only talking 12 years ago.
Speaker B:Like, we're not talking 30 years ago.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It is recent and I think that is part of it.
Speaker B:Like for people to want the men to do more, they have to start realizing that society has to want that.
Speaker B:Society has to start thinking about parents as a two thing, not as a mother thing.
Speaker B:And I think that's when we'll start seeing if that change does happen.
Speaker B:And I think it is happening.
Speaker B:It's just very slow.
Speaker B:Really, really slow.
Speaker B:And then there's also lots of very horrible narratives happening which is making it stall slash rewind.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Lol.
Speaker B:Lol.
Speaker B:Nervous.
Speaker B:I really want to go into that conversation, but not now because that's like a whole new.
Speaker A:Yeah, not today.
Speaker A:But no, in terms of.
Speaker A:I'm also really tired of the man bashing narrative.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:The pitting men against women.
Speaker A:I don't understand how people think that's going to be helpful to anybody in any circumstance, really.
Speaker A:And yeah, it's a lot of expectation, like you said, going back to what you were saying about the birth, like the expectation on a male partner in that situation to suddenly spring into action as soon as a baby's placed in his arms.
Speaker A:When faced with a newborn baby, a woman who's just been through a huge physical trauma and whose hormones are literally making her insane and being like, okay, now you need to step up and be a perfect dad, perfect husband, share all the load, know exactly what you're doing.
Speaker A:Oh, but all the by, by the way, we hate men and it's all your fault.
Speaker B:Like, come on.
Speaker B:Yeah, that comment.
Speaker B:So I made that comment on that Instagram reel and the hate that I've had is something else, really.
Speaker B:I mean, there's 8, 000 likes, so there's 8, 000 people that like what I had to say.
Speaker B:But then the comments underneath my comment from other women and men, someone told me that of course society values.
Speaker B:No, it was something like, women definitely value caregiving.
Speaker B:It's men that don't.
Speaker B:I was like, no, no, you're missing the whole point.
Speaker B:Incorrect.
Speaker B:There was a lot of, it's not society's problem if you can't afford to have children, don't have them.
Speaker B:There was a lot of that.
Speaker B:Even though in my comment I hadn't mentioned money at all.
Speaker B:Like, when I say society needs to value it, it doesn't mean with their cash.
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't want more money.
Speaker B:I want physical support.
Speaker B:I want hands on support.
Speaker B:I want someone to come and hold my hand when I'm finding it tough.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not saying give me money for my children.
Speaker B:Don't get me wrong.
Speaker B:I think that could be helpful for some families.
Speaker B:But that isn't what I mean when I'm saying we don't value you.
Speaker B:Child rearing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, there's this whole thing of the fact that childcare isn't a taxable deductible allowance in your business.
Speaker A:Yeah, That's a whole episode.
Speaker B:Blows my brain.
Speaker B:How is that not.
Speaker B:I know that that isn't deemed a business expense.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wild.
Speaker A:Because.
Speaker B:And that's coming from the camera.
Speaker A:It feels like a lot of legacy kind of.
Speaker A:I don't know, is it like legacy narrative?
Speaker A:Like, well, you don't need to claim it as a business expense because isn't your wife doing that?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or isn't your nanny doing that?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So your wife can lunch because that's.
Speaker A:What we'd be doing if we had nannies.
Speaker B:That is the narrative, though, because women shouldn't be in business.
Speaker B:Women aren't the business owners.
Speaker B:The men are.
Speaker B:And therefore, child rearing is a woman's job, and therefore isn't a business expense.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, yeah, it's wild.
Speaker A:That's really kind of entrenched.
Speaker A:When I was trying to organize my maternity leave with my first child, my accountant that I had at the time didn't know how to do the paperwork to.
Speaker A:For me to fund my own maternity leave out of my own business, because he'd never had to do it before.
Speaker B:This is wild, isn't it?
Speaker B:It is wild.
Speaker A:Just at a fundamental level.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We can have it all, but the systems are not there to support us.
Speaker B:And yet here we are, still doing.
Speaker A:It all, giving it a bash anyway.
Speaker B:With both hands that cringe.
Speaker A:I feel like we just had a really good chat.
Speaker B:Yeah, we did.
Speaker A:We just talked for an hour.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:My belly is, well rumbling, and I think you're gonna have to, like, edit it.
Speaker A:Sa.
