Wanting in Public: A Mother's Perspective
In this episode of With Both Hands, we explore the complexities of desire, identity and motherhood through the lens of the podcast Wanting in Public by Kaitlyn Kessler & Xanthe Appleyard.
Laura and Clare examine why expressing personal wants can feel so uncomfortable for women, particularly mothers, and how deeply ingrained ideas of selflessness continue to shape how women see themselves.
Expect reflections on the tension between caregiving and individuality, the guilt often attached to ambition or personal fulfilment, and the cultural narratives that frame maternal desire as indulgent or selfish. The episode questions the expectation that motherhood should require constant sacrifice, and considers what becomes possible when women begin to acknowledge their own needs alongside those of their families. Through thoughtful discussion and lived experience, this episode invites listeners to reconsider the role that wanting plays in a meaningful life and to view self-advocacy not as selfishness but as an essential part of being fully human.
Transcript
Hello, I'm Claire.
Speaker B:And I'm Laura.
Speaker A:And we are two mums who met on the Internet.
Speaker A:Welcome to the With Both Hands podcast.
Speaker A:Today we are inspired by a podcast called Wanting in Public which is hosted by Xanthi Appleyard and Caitlin Kessler.
Speaker A:I was listening to this the other week.
Speaker A:It's a brilliant podcast.
Speaker A:Basically, they are engaged in a practice of speaking out loud the things that they want as women, which as we know, can be quite difficult.
Speaker A:And it just occurred to me that motherhood adds another lens to that because I think that wanting things for yourself can feel quite self indulgent.
Speaker A:There's narratives around that feeling quite kind of self indulgent for mothers.
Speaker A:There's a lot of narrative around sort of being a caregiver and putting yourself into a place where your needs come last often.
Speaker A:Or it swings quite far the other way and it gets onto the kind of self care wellness hype where you.
Speaker B:Have to carve out four hours to,.
Speaker A:You know, have a steam bath and do skincare and journal and candlelight and all that stuff.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:A practical level, obviously we're not doing that on a regular basis.
Speaker A:We're running businesses, we have kids, we have careers, we have families, we have homes, we have friends, all the rest of it.
Speaker A:So today we are inspired by the Wanting in Public podcast to talk about our wants in public and to address some of those narratives around motherhood.
Speaker A:Why do we find it so difficult to want things for ourselves?
Speaker A:And at what point does becoming a mother or a caregiver really in any context start to tip over into a martyrhood narrative?
Speaker A:And what can we do to challenge that?
Speaker B:I'm so excited for this conversation.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's going to be a good one.
Speaker B:Yeah, it is, I think.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I've not actually listened to this podcast, so I probably should go and listen to that at some point.
Speaker B:But yeah, I'm really, really excited to have this conversation because I also think there's a difference between having our needs met and that being a need and wants.
Speaker B:And I think, I think mums in general don't even meet their needs, let alone think about wanting.
Speaker A:That's so true.
Speaker A:That's such a good point.
Speaker A:Well, maybe let's start by differentiating that then.
Speaker A:Where did.
Speaker A:What, what, what, what are we defining as needs and what are we defining as wants?
Speaker B:So I think needs is actually maslow hierarchy of needs.
Speaker B:We will put this.
Speaker B:So my own social media, I am that he's literally done loads of work on working out what needs are and whatnot.
Speaker B:And there's actually multi layers of needs.
Speaker B:So you've got like your sensory needs and you've got your emotional needs and you've got all these other needs.
Speaker B:And I think as mums, we sometimes forget that we have these needs to be able to function as human beings.
Speaker B:And then on top of that we have wants and desires which gives us this big luscious life.
Speaker B:So yeah, for me, needs is what do I need to function?
Speaker B:It's a functionality.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's how I would describe it.
Speaker B:So what do I need to live and baseline, but also what do I need to live at my most productive self.
Speaker B:They're different.
Speaker B:And then once would be something above and beyond that, which I think a lot of people would be like, oh, we can't possibly.
Speaker B:Like if we're already living our most productive life, how dare we want more?
Speaker A:I think it's interesting that the word productive is what's most prominent in that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because actually, why is it that we default to being our most productive selves?
Speaker A:What about our most joy filled selves or our most fulfilled selves or our most creatively expressive selves?
Speaker A:You know, and yeah, obviously with Maslow's hierarchy, the base level is having your core needs met for survival and moving up through those layers to the top level, which is your needs being met so that you can pursue things like intellectual pursuits, spiritual pursuits, enlightenment, that kind of level which is where we probably start to tip into the want bracket over and above that.
Speaker A:But yeah, I wonder if we do generally as a society, optimize for productivity, don't we?
Speaker A:So we're making sure needs are met in order to sustain lives which can be termed as productive.
Speaker A:Maybe once.
Speaker A:Then we're talking about how do we create lives that feel deeply rich and fulfilling and kind of tapping into the human experience beyond what, what is functional and practical and productive?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker B:I think for me, like obviously I've been in business for so long, productivity and efficiency is literally feels like part of my blood and bones at times.
Speaker B:And like that's, that's my scaffolding.
Speaker B:Like, am I being productive?
Speaker B:Am I being efficient?
Speaker B:But I want to be productive and efficient in order to create space to do the stuff I want.
Speaker B:So like mine's not as a. I don't want to be productive and efficient for the sake of it anymore.
Speaker A:1.
Speaker B:Once Upon a Time I did, and once upon a time I wanted to be productive and efficient so I could get employee of the month and be seen and climb that corporate ladder as I've Aged.
Speaker B:I see that more as I want to be really productive and efficient.
Speaker B:So I have more capacity to go to the river with my kids to go on big trips and their wants.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:Although I would, I would argue that the river is a basic need.
Speaker A:Is a need.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would argue that.
Speaker B:Um, but I think some people would argue that that's a one.
Speaker B:I think this is where there's nuance in where we are as humans as well and each individual will see it differently.
Speaker B:I think what's really interesting actually is I'm good at doing the things that I want, but then I'm not pushing to my edge.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker B:So it's like I will only ever really want things that I know I could go and get.
Speaker A:Oh, that's interesting, you know.
Speaker B:So, okay.
Speaker B:People look at me and go, oh, but she lives this huge life.
Speaker B:But really stuff I want, they're not pushing me to my age because I'm already doing it.
Speaker A:Tell me something that you want that's beyond the edge.
Speaker B:Oh, Claire, how dare you call me out like this straight off the bat.
Speaker B:Okay, what do I want that'd be off the edge?
Speaker B:I mean the biggest one that I will ever have as an Aquarius is world peace, which like that is out there and that is really off the edge.
Speaker B:And I honestly don't think I can do that on my own.
Speaker B:But I do believe that lots of people in doing small things in community would help us get there.
Speaker B:And like the other things that I want, I want to be a global best selling author.
Speaker B:And I am so many steps away from that ever being a thing.
Speaker B:That's definitely something I want.
Speaker B:I want people to understand the way I think because I really do think it help people.
Speaker B:I hate saying that out loud because it makes.
Speaker B:It makes me feel a bit icky.
Speaker A:It's uncomfortable.
Speaker B:It is uncomfortable to say that out loud for sure.
Speaker B:But the amount of conversations I have even with people like, like you and my friends and they're like, I wish I thought like you.
Speaker B:But thank you for giving me that perspective because it has changed the way I was thinking about that.
Speaker B:I just think books are a really good way.
Speaker B:Like they will live longer than I will live so people can see how I thought.
Speaker B:So yeah, that is a big one.
Speaker B:And then I also think that would also begin to unravel that world peace want.
Speaker B:But maybe in a thousand years the.
Speaker A:Conservative estimate I love and I think that that that's an important part of the conversation around defining things by productivity because I think we can Often fall into the trap of thinking that our wants have to be something that we can actually achieve right now.
Speaker A:Because that's how everything's wired.
Speaker A:Everything's wired to, you know, you set a goal and then you achieve that goal, preferably as quickly as possible.
Speaker A:So to set out a huge stretchy, which can feel very unattainable in the right now, that I think can feel quite uncomfortable often, which is why it's even more important to say it out loud.
Speaker B:Yeah, definitely feels uncomfortable.
Speaker B:And I would say, like, even like with my MBA and all the business stuff, that is what we're taught.
Speaker B:So we're taught you have a vision, then you break that down into goals, and then you break that down into next steps, and then you start trotting the path.
Speaker B:And it does work.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not gonna sit here and go, that's not work.
Speaker B:I use this with my clients.
Speaker B:It is how we get people to where they want to be.
Speaker B:But as I get older and more mature and just.
Speaker B:I see the beauty in life.
Speaker B:I want more than just ticking things off a to do list and ticking visions off.
Speaker B:Some of the things that I want is to feel deeply and to be really present in whatever it is I'm doing today.
Speaker B:Because yesterday is gone, tomorrow's not promised.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I've got right now, here and now and feeling and seeing and.
Speaker B:And being in that.
Speaker B:In that space.
Speaker B:And I think that's my biggest wants is to be able to be so free that I'm not thinking about tomorrow and I'm not thinking about yesterday.
Speaker B:And I can just be right now without thinking, how am I going to pay the bills next week?
Speaker B:Do what marketing do I need to do?
Speaker B:I think that's the ultimate freedom.
Speaker A:That's a really good one.
Speaker A:That's a really good one.
Speaker A:Because it doesn't always have to be things you can want that.
Speaker A:A state of being that feels free and feels like it's easy and peaceful and allows you to be in the present moment.
Speaker A:That's beautiful.
Speaker B:Can I just.
Speaker B:Waking up on any random day and just been like, right today I'm going to watch that bird in that tree.
Speaker B:It's always a bird.
Speaker B:Also, this is a real side tangent.
Speaker B:Sorry, everybody, but I learned over the weekend that bird watching is called twitching.
Speaker B:Is it because I spotted a bird and someone was like, oh, are you a twitcher?
Speaker B:And I was like, pardon, I have a new label.
Speaker B:It sounds rude.
Speaker B:I don't know why are you a twitch?
Speaker B:I'm a twitcher.
Speaker B:Cream top for me.
Speaker B:And my 30s, I used to have a phobia of birds.
Speaker B:I don't know if I've told this story in the podcast, but I used to have a severe phobia of birds and anything that, like, flew other than an airplane, because that's my maid and therefore not scary.
Speaker B:I don't know why.
Speaker B:My brain.
Speaker B:My brain logic.
Speaker B:Not cool.
Speaker B:In my 20s, and then I went on a trip to Malaysia, and I was in a, like, a little rowing boat.
Speaker B:I think it was a rowing boat.
Speaker B:Anyway, a boat in, like, a small, small group.
Speaker B:And there was me and my friend, and then another couple and then our guide and the other couple.
Speaker B:The man was an avid twitcher, bird watcher, and he loved kingfishers, right?
Speaker B:And every time I spotted a kingfisher, I was like, it's kingfisher.
Speaker B:Because it made him light up.
Speaker B:And then I found that I was looking for the kingfisher because I was getting that dopamine hit now as well now, because it was for him, but it transferred to me, and now, Now I still get that joy when I see birds that I don't often see, like, big dopamine hit.
Speaker B:And that dopamine hit of, like, when you see it in the sky, you're like, oh, I wonder what that is.
Speaker B:And I wish I had binoculars so I could actually go and look up to see what bird I've just seen.
Speaker B:It's the whole thing.
Speaker A:You're a twitcher.
Speaker B:I'm a twitcher.
Speaker A:You caught it from him.
Speaker B:And that was not ever on my vision board or my goal list, you know, like.
Speaker B:But I would not change it for anything.
Speaker B:I love how much joy I get from birds.
Speaker B:There's a younger version of me right now, furious.
Speaker B:You did so much to make me cool, and I'm now no longer cool.
Speaker A:I learned last week, I was 38 years old when I learned that birds don't we.
Speaker A:They don't have bladders.
Speaker B:Did you know that?
Speaker B:I did not know that.
Speaker A:My little boy asked me, do birds we.
Speaker A:This is generally, you know, the conversations that we have, you know, And I was like, I don't actually know.
Speaker B:Let's find out.
Speaker A:So I googled it, and lo and behold, birds do not have bladders.
Speaker B:Again, that was not on your goal list.
Speaker A:Not on my goal list.
Speaker A:But these are the kind of fun facts that I get on a weekly basis.
Speaker A:And this is one of the great things about having kids that nobody tells you about your general knowledge.
Speaker A:Like, your ability to take a pub quiz will be on point, except it.
Speaker B:Won't because when you get to the pub quiz, you'll be so tired that your executive function is running, you won't be able to remember it.
Speaker A:Yeah, you can't get to the pub quiz, but if you could, you would win for sure.
Speaker A:Hands down.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's over there.
Speaker B:I learned last week, so this is a complete tangent everybody, but I learned last week that chasm is said.
Speaker B:Chasm.
Speaker A:Oh, I knew that one.
Speaker B:I did not.
Speaker B:I did know that one and it's hyperbole, not hyperbole.
Speaker B:Oh, my daughter was like, you didn't know hyperbole?
Speaker B:And I was like, no, I thought it was hyperbole.
Speaker B:She was like, what?
Speaker B:Like some kind of extravagant Super Bowl?
Speaker A:Yeah, like the super bowl, but extra.
Speaker B:And I was like, yes, sure.
Speaker B:And how does that make sense in context?
Speaker B:I was like, well, it didn't, but I didn't think about that, did I?
Speaker A:That's excellent.
Speaker B:Hyperbole.
Speaker B:Had no idea.
Speaker B:But it sounds so much better.
Speaker A:Hyperbole.
Speaker B:Hyperbole.
Speaker B:I like it.
Speaker B:But hyperbole is like such a pretty, pretty pronunciation, so I can't believe it's.
Speaker A:A really good word.
Speaker B:Hyperbole forever.
Speaker B:Been making it sound ugly when it's so pretty, even though the actual word is quite ugly.
Speaker B:Like if you're doing it, but it sounds pretty.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Anyway, wanting out, always learning.
Speaker B:Always learning.
Speaker B:That's the best thing.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think.
Speaker B:And there is something in here as well about wanting out loud and creating the space to just see where life goes and not always needing to be hyper productive, hyper efficient, hyper pushing towards the goals, you know, like creating space to twitch.
Speaker B:To twitch.
Speaker A:Well, that's one of the really hard things, isn't it?
Speaker A:When you are a mother and when you're building, running a business, the goals orientation becomes very prevalent in front of mind, doesn't it?
Speaker A:Because you have to set goals to really get anywhere.
Speaker A:So creating that space, carving out that space to actually let yourself just be can be quite a challenge.
Speaker A:Holding those two things simultaneously can be quite a challenge.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:This reminds me of a conversation I had actually with a good friend of mine.
Speaker B:And she was like, I just don't understand how you do all you do.
Speaker B:How do you do it?
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:What are you doing?
Speaker B:And I sat with it a minute because, like, obviously this is my life.
Speaker B:And actually if you were like a fire on the wall in my house, you wouldn't see me do a lot.
Speaker B:I'm not one of those people that's like rushing around the house all the time, getting stuff done, tidying up, like I'm not, I'm quite a slow person, quite a steady person.
Speaker B:I'm not rushing around everywhere which usually means I'm late and then I do rush around a little bit.
Speaker B:But on the whole I'm quite a steady slow person.
Speaker B:And I might add, I don't, I don't really know because I'm not, I'm not in that frantic energy.
Speaker B:But I do end up getting quite a lot done and I do hold quite a lot.
Speaker B:And one thing that really came to me is just the way I'm programmed is I do a lot like I work because I find a lot of pleasure in my work.
Speaker B:So I do a lot of work.
Speaker B:I do a lot of kids stuff because of my mum.
Speaker B:But then I will take myself away from my normal environment to do stuff.
Speaker B:But on a normal Monday to Sunday week I do very little socializing.
Speaker B:So I'm not out of my friends.
Speaker B:I'm not, I'm not using that energy on a week by week basis.
Speaker B:But I kind of hold it and then I, I do it in a, in a three day sprint and then I'll go back to being just working and mumming and then I'll go socialize again but I'm not socializing like all the time.
Speaker B:So this friend of mine will socialize every weekend.
Speaker B:They'll go out with friends, they'll do part is they'll always take the kids with them but they're, they're, they're heavy social socializing at weekends as I, I'm, I'm not really because my energy doesn't really suit that.
Speaker B:But I will go and do a week with a load of strangers and then come back.
Speaker B:So yeah, I think that's, I think that's something that, I think people think they need to do what the other person's doing and not actually finding their own energy rhythm.
Speaker B:And how you as a human need to meet your needs and then create space for your wants is very individual based on the children you have as well.
Speaker B:I have high energy children.
Speaker B:If I then had to go out every Saturday with high energy friends, I'd be a pancake like for sure.
Speaker A:Energy reserves.
Speaker A:I think yes.
Speaker A:And I think it's like with everything you have to a think about it intentionally then.
Speaker A:So it's a good question because you do from the outside.
Speaker A:I, I, I agree with your friend.
Speaker A:Like you seem to do a lot of things, you know, but it is all very highly int.
Speaker A:I understand what you mean.
Speaker A:You don't leak energy doing things that you probably aren't really that bothered about.
Speaker A:You will conserve your energy.
Speaker A:You will say no to things, you will cancel plans if it, if it doesn't fit with your energy that you hold.
Speaker A:And you book things in for yourself which are very, very intentional and aligned with the things that you want.
Speaker A:You're very, very good at that.
Speaker A:I think so.
Speaker A:I think that it's very easy again to you fall into rhythms and patterns in life where it's difficult sometimes to intentionally take a step back and assess.
Speaker A:Like, are the things I've got in the calendar actually things that I want to do?
Speaker A:Are they a hard yes and if they're not, what can I drop?
Speaker A:And we've talked about this before because you can't have everything all at the same time.
Speaker A:There has to be a sacrifice or a trade off somewhere.
Speaker A:So if going on a business retreat and spending a weekend with strangers or going to India to drive a tuk tuk across the country is on your want list, maybe it's a case of what can you let go of in order to make that happen.
Speaker A:You probably can't socialize every weekend and do parties and dinners and barbecues and kids stuff and big days out and also do that.
Speaker A:Which one, which want, I guess, are you choosing?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think something that's, that's really clear to me as well recently.
Speaker B:So obviously I've just come.
Speaker B:I was in Costa Rica, then I came back, then I went to India then and then I'm back and then I did do some work trips as well because I had client stuff that had to meet because that was my obligation and therefore I had to meet those client needs.
Speaker B:And my children have commented, you've not been here a lot.
Speaker B:Where have you been?
Speaker B:So I don't want this to sound like I do this and I don't get any backlash.
Speaker B:Of course I do.
Speaker B:Like my children have friends whose parents are always at school pick up, then they never miss a day.
Speaker B:But what's important is the conversation I have with them.
Speaker B:And one of this is because I want them to know they can have a big life with their parents.
Speaker B:I don't want them ever to feel like they're trapped.
Speaker B:And I'll have a conversation with, yeah, I did this and they did this and now I'm home for three months and we are gonna be here together in, in family.
Speaker B:And when I'm away I FaceTime them.
Speaker B:So it's like I'm still keeping that connection with them as much as I can whilst also keeping the connection to myself because when they've flown the nest.
Speaker B:When they have their own families, the person I'll be left with is me and my marriage.
Speaker B:So I also, really, well, me and my husband really try and keep connected as much as we can.
Speaker B:It's hard in these young child years, but as much as we can, we like, let's pull back together, make sure that when this season of our lifestyle, we actually still like each other because we're going to be left together when they've all gone and made their own families.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that is, it's like this, it's like a puppet, I suppose, like you're pulling all the different strings and sometimes part of your life is dancing about, the other one's a bit dormant.
Speaker B:And I think that it's not gone and you can bring it back to life again, but it's just gathering dust for a minute.
Speaker B:The one thing I won't let gather dust for a minute is me, because I, I, I owe it to myself to live the biggest life I can live.
Speaker B:So anything else can lay dormant for a minute and gather dust, but the only person that's going to keep my light on is me.
Speaker A:It's the, it's the glass ball thing, isn't it?
Speaker A:Have you heard the, the glass ball theory that we're all juggling these balls?
Speaker A:You know, it's the juggling analogy again.
Speaker A:We're all juggling these balls, but some of the balls are made of glass and some of the balls are made of rubber.
Speaker A:So it's really important, glass balls, because you can drop the rubber balls, they'll bounce, you can pick them back up again, they won't be damaged, but you can't drop the glass balls.
Speaker A:And I think there's certain things like connection with your kids, connection with your husband or your partner, connection with yourself, your identity, feeding the parts of you that need to keep the lights on.
Speaker A:Like you said, those are glass balls.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'd challenge that though, actually.
Speaker B:Like, as you said that, I was like, this is interesting to me because I wonder if the more we try and hold it on to a rubber ball, it makes it glass.
Speaker B:So, like, if I didn't do my things, would my kids depend on me so much that every time I did it, it'd feel like a glass ball.
Speaker B:It'd feel fragile, it'd feel like, oh, my God.
Speaker B:Because I do it quite often, they actually bounce.
Speaker B:They actually return back to me very quickly.
Speaker B:Like, yes, they can be pissed off with me and they are like, I'm not saying that.
Speaker B:I don't ever get Any anger from them.
Speaker B:I do, but I hold it.
Speaker B:I hold the anger.
Speaker B:You can be angry at me for missing that thing because I wasn't here.
Speaker B:Be angry at me.
Speaker B:But I chose myself because I'm allowed to choose myself.
Speaker A:And I'm.
Speaker B:I'm sorry that I missed that.
Speaker B:It was really important to you and doing this was really important to me.
Speaker B:And we're both human.
Speaker B:Teaching them that.
Speaker B:One, you can be angry at something and that's okay.
Speaker B:You can be angry.
Speaker B:Two, I will be here again, like I'm coming back.
Speaker B:I'm not.
Speaker B:Just because I missed that one thing doesn't mean I'm gonna miss the next thing.
Speaker B:Do you know?
Speaker B:And repairing, like repairing that relationship.
Speaker B:Because I think if you're constantly just trying to not disappoint your kids, those relationships do become fragile, they do become glass.
Speaker B:They do become the thing that you don't ever want to drop.
Speaker B:But actually what we want is relationships that bounce because we're all the resilient.
Speaker A:Yeah, but that's it.
Speaker A:That's leaning into the hard conversation there and leaning into being able to hold, which I think is very uncomfortable.
Speaker A:Can be.
Speaker A:It's a muscle that needs to be exercised.
Speaker A:Being able to hold.
Speaker A:It's okay that you're angry at me.
Speaker A:Especially when we grew up like I did in a family where negative emotions were not really able to be in the room ever.
Speaker A:Then being able to sit with a child who's angry at you and say, I can hold your anger and it's safe for you to be angry with me.
Speaker A:And our connection isn't in any way disrupted by that.
Speaker A:I think that's the thing that you can't put down.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:The kids are resilient and the relationship.
Speaker A:You're absolutely right.
Speaker A:I completely agree with you.
Speaker A:The tighter you hold onto things, sometimes the more fragile they become.
Speaker A:It's not the going away and doing your own thing that's going to break it.
Speaker A:It's not leaning into the connection of being able to have hard conversations, of being able to sit with hard feelings, of repairing and being in a connection based relationship with that child.
Speaker A:That's the thing that can be broken.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker B:Yes, I agree.
Speaker A:I agree with you that yeah, going away and coming back isn't the thing that's dropping the ball.
Speaker B:But people will think that is.
Speaker A:They will, absolutely.
Speaker A:But I think that's a really important distinction.
Speaker B:Yeah, but that isn't, that isn't the thing that breaks it.
Speaker B:And I think when you realize that doors open, opportunities arrive.
Speaker B:Once desires come back into your life and you're like, oh, actually I could.
Speaker B:And I come back to like, I didn't go from not doing this to going, driving a tuktuk across India in one step.
Speaker B:Like, this is years of, I'm just gonna go and stand in my garden for five minutes, I'm gonna go and book myself in a hotel for a night, I'm gonna take myself out for dinner.
Speaker B:And yeah, it's been lots and lots of small steps that eventually have led to, to where I am now.
Speaker B:And that also was the children as well.
Speaker B:Like, they've had lots and lots of practice of telling me exactly how they feel.
Speaker B:I don't get it right all the time because I'm also human, but I go and apologize to them, like, I got that wrong.
Speaker A:You grow into it as a family, don't you?
Speaker A:That's the thing.
Speaker A:You're establishing patterns which as a family, you are all growing into and practicing together.
Speaker A:And again, I think it's.
Speaker A:It comes back to seasons again as well, doesn't it?
Speaker A:To it.
Speaker A:To an extent.
Speaker A:Because for example, right now I have a two year old.
Speaker A:So with the best will in the world, even if I really, really wanted to, I can't go to India right now, but I want to be able to go to India in the future.
Speaker A:And that's okay.
Speaker A:It's not available right now, but it will be in the future.
Speaker B:I can't wait to drive that.
Speaker B:Tilt it.
Speaker B:I know, but yeah, it is that.
Speaker B:And it's like I, I've told you on this podcast, I want to be a global best selling author.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:It's out there.
Speaker B:I can't do that tomorrow.
Speaker B:I can't do that today.
Speaker B:No, I can put steps in place to get there, but then I also want to be a really present mom.
Speaker B:I also want to enjoy my Sunday dinners with my kids that I've now found out.
Speaker B:So the other week, this, this was a really beautiful moment.
Speaker B:It was Sunday and my eldest was going out to dos with his mates.
Speaker B:Apparently don't use the word dust anymore.
Speaker B:Chill.
Speaker B:They use the word chill.
Speaker B:He was going out to chill with his mates and I was like, please be back for tea.
Speaker B:And he was like, of course it's Sunday.
Speaker B:And I was like, oh.
Speaker B:He was like, I wouldn't miss I won't miss Sunday roast.
Speaker B:And I just love that.
Speaker B:Like the anchor of their week where they're back at the table, we're chatting as a family, and then off they go.
Speaker B:Yeah, that was a big one.
Speaker B:For mine for a long, long time.
Speaker B:And I loved that he's out, of course.
Speaker B:Like, honestly, he was confused as to why I was asking him to be back.
Speaker B:Because he's like, of course I'll be there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I was like, yes, we, we've got that cadence, we've got the anchor.
Speaker B:And from that everything else comes.
Speaker B:And again, it does come back to family, actually.
Speaker B:And I think there's a distinction between family and mother.
Speaker B:Like, it's not our job as mothers to ensure our family runs well.
Speaker B:Every person in that family has a part to play in making sure that family runs well.
Speaker B:Yes, we can lead it, but we can't control it.
Speaker B:I can't control whether my eldest came back that night.
Speaker B:Yes, I could be go.
Speaker B:You disappointed me that you weren't here for family dinner.
Speaker B:I'm a bit disappointed in that.
Speaker B:But that was your decision to make.
Speaker B:And then when he's like, because it has happened where that's happened.
Speaker B:And then he'd be like, oh, I don't feel as connected to the family.
Speaker B:Well, what decisions have you made recently?
Speaker B:Not for me to constantly make sure you feel connected.
Speaker B:It's also on you to show up at family time.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So you're here for it and you can feel connected.
Speaker B:It's a two way thing.
Speaker B:And I've also, very recently since being back from India, actually brought a really business term into my house that my six year old, well, nearly six year old and nine year old are adoring.
Speaker B:And it is that teamwork next to dreamwork.
Speaker B:So when they just throw their dramas on the floor and I'm like, excuse me, what are they doing there?
Speaker B:And they're like, oh, can you pick them up?
Speaker B:I was like, no.
Speaker B:Teamwork makes a dream work.
Speaker B:Please do your bit in our house.
Speaker B:And it's our house as well.
Speaker B:Not my house, not my kitchen.
Speaker B:It's our house.
Speaker B:It's our kitchen.
Speaker B:We're all part of it.
Speaker B:And I think that's part of.
Speaker B:I think there's a wider conversation in it is not the mother's job to control the house.
Speaker B:It's our job to lead it with our partners, but we don't control it.
Speaker A:Well, that's it, isn't it?
Speaker A:That's a very, very important distinction between leading and controlling.
Speaker A:We can set the parameters of expectation, we can establish the routines, we can put in place the anchors.
Speaker A:You put in place the anchor of Sunday dinner.
Speaker A:You show up and cook Sunday dinner and put it on the table.
Speaker A:You set the expectation that everybody is there for dinner.
Speaker A:You cannot control, like you said, if your 16 year old turns up or not.
Speaker A:And that's all you can do really.
Speaker B:But he missed them and now he's like, I wouldn't miss it.
Speaker B:Like he's learned his own lesson.
Speaker B:I didn't need to be like, you will be here or you're grounded for a week.
Speaker B:Like that doesn't for me, that's not the way I parent.
Speaker B:But it wouldn't help us build that connection.
Speaker B:It actually make him feel less connected, like I'm punishing him instead of, okay, well, you feel, you don't feel connected.
Speaker B:You need to spend more time with us.
Speaker B:So anyway, what do you want?
Speaker A:What do I want?
Speaker A:Lots of things.
Speaker A:I think that my ideas of what I want probably shifted quite a lot.
Speaker A:So I spent a lot of my 20s traveling.
Speaker A:So my wants, you know, previously I would have been able to give you a big long bucket list basically of wants.
Speaker A:And I want to go to this country and I want to do this experience and I want to do this and climb this mountain and try this food and very, very specific list of wants actually.
Speaker A:Which is very fun and great when you're in a position to tick them off, but also is actually quite constrictive in a way because what that does is it establishes a network of things you have to tick off basically.
Speaker A:And you're living to a map of your own creation of tick points.
Speaker A:And if you do that exclusively, you get to a point where it doesn't really feel that fulfilling or enriching when you get there anymore because you've ticked it and then it's like, right next checklist.
Speaker A:So I think that what I want now tends to be much smaller.
Speaker A:Generally speaking, there are some big ones, like I want a house with a garden.
Speaker A:That's a want.
Speaker A:We currently have a backyard, like a walled yard.
Speaker A:I want a house with grass.
Speaker A:That's a want.
Speaker A:But mostly it's kind of similar to what you said earlier.
Speaker A:I want to be able to have the space in the evenings to sit and have a conversation with my husband without being interrupted by a child.
Speaker A:It's things like that.
Speaker A:I want to be able to go out for lunch with a friend who I can have a really deep conversation with.
Speaker A:And I think that in this season, as, as I've entered my late 30s, it's kind of much more about wanting.
Speaker A:The ability to slow down and be much more intentional.
Speaker A:And a lot of that is self created because I have for most of my life been quite an unstructured person.
Speaker A:What I call My floaty creative brain, what most people would probably call some form of adhd, but unofficial floaty creative brain tends to exist in a state which is more chaotic than I would like.
Speaker A:And that is counterintuitive to being able to identify intentional wants.
Speaker A:So something that I've been working really hard on over the past couple of years is to be much more intentional with that process, be able to say no to things that don't directly feed into that.
Speaker A:And this is again, something we talk about a lot because one of the things that motherhood does really well is it narrows your focus.
Speaker A:You don't really have time anymore, generally speaking, for the things that aren't intentional and that you don't really want, things drop away.
Speaker A:So things that I would have said I wanted, do I really want them that much?
Speaker A:Did I ever really want them that much?
Speaker A:Did they just sound good?
Speaker A:Was there some form of ego driving that I wanted that?
Speaker A:What do I really want?
Speaker A:And what I want really is to be able to be present with my kids, to have a space, to be able to build a home that feels like the space where we can all exist to the best of our.
Speaker A:I hate to use the word optimum or optimized, but do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Be our best selves.
Speaker A:I'm doing air quotes.
Speaker A:But create a home for us that feels like us and feels like a rooted, anchored space for everybody to be connected and be together.
Speaker A:And that's my primary one.
Speaker A:That and a full night's sleep where I don't get woken up at 6am by a toddler.
Speaker B:I said, mine is no longer a toddler.
Speaker B:He is far too bloody big to be in my bed.
Speaker B:And he's been in it three, three or four days this week and he's still obsessed with necks.
Speaker B:I don't know if I've ever discussed this either.
Speaker A:Yeah, you told me about the neck thing.
Speaker B:So my 6 short is obsessed with necks and he has been since he was a. I can't remember the time where he didn't go for a neck.
Speaker B:So, like when he was a newborn, he'd always settle in, in the nook of your neck.
Speaker B:And as he grew and became a toddler, it was his hand and he just holds your neck.
Speaker B:And he still, still does that.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker B:He's not allowed to do it at school, which he's very disappointed about.
Speaker B:He's not allowed to hold people's necks at school, so he has to make up for it when he gets home.
Speaker B:So, yeah, last night he was on my neck and he's very cross because my hair covers my neck now because he's long, he's like, move your hair.
Speaker B:It's my hair on my head, around my neck.
Speaker B:Like, this is all my body.
Speaker B:Leave me alone.
Speaker B:It's 3am but yeah, there's part of me that like, I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker B:But also I'll be really sad.
Speaker B:It'll be one of those things there.
Speaker A:To a double edged sword.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is it that?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, two things can be true at once.
Speaker B:Like I can be really sad about it and also elated.
Speaker A:Very familiar.
Speaker B:When the neck season is done, I will have both.
Speaker B:But yeah, I love that imagery that you've just painted of your ones.
Speaker A:Like do you know what's just come to me as I said that though, which is quite interesting and I wonder if you resonate with this.
Speaker A:I find it so much easier to talk about things I want from a professional, creative, business building standpoint than I do from a personal standpoint.
Speaker A:Like if you said to me, what do you want in terms of the business?
Speaker A:I could quite happily sit here and be like, I want to guest speak on a podcast, I want to speak to a workshop or be invited to speak at a summit, something like that.
Speaker A:I could, I could give you those.
Speaker A:And that doesn't feel particularly uncomfortable to say that I'm not close to them.
Speaker A:They're things to work towards.
Speaker A:That's fine.
Speaker A:But I find it much easier to define things I want professionally than things I want for myself personally.
Speaker A:Yeah, I find that more uncomfortable.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't think if I have anything defined that is purely for me.
Speaker B:I don't, I don't think any of my want list is that.
Speaker B:And I don't know if that is just human nature where we like as much as everyone says we're individualism or individualized, I don't know the word is.
Speaker B:But individualistic maybe.
Speaker B:Actually, I think our core is we're actually very community and social beings and therefore everything that we like, we chipped away at the layers and got to our core self.
Speaker B:I don't think we'd ever want anything just for ourselves.
Speaker B:I don't think that's who.
Speaker B:I don't think that's what humans are.
Speaker B:That, that's my belief and therefore a lot of my wants are really based on other human beings.
Speaker B:Like even India.
Speaker B:One of my core reasons I wanted to go to India was to be surrounded by 33 other female founders doing something ridiculous because I knew I'd have stories to tell.
Speaker B:And then the stories I tell would change perspectives of other human beings that weren't there.
Speaker B:Yes, I got a lot from it too.
Speaker B:But that, that wasn't really why I wanted to do it.
Speaker B:It wasn't about me, it was about the bigger, the bigger thing.
Speaker B:And somebody would be like, yeah, but is that people pleasing or is that as humans we are built to live in community and, and be social and I think actually capitalism makes it very individualistic and that isn't how we actually want to live when we break it down.
Speaker B:Like I actually want a really busy kitchen full of friends and kids and chaoticness and mess and that, that's what I want on picnics at the river with my mate.
Speaker B:It's like I don't want to be on my own actually.
Speaker B:So yeah, like maybe that's why, maybe that's why we can't.
Speaker B:Because businesses are quite, I don't know, I wanted to use the word brutal, but I don't actually believe that anymore.
Speaker B:But business and the way it's taught is very black and white.
Speaker B:Humans aren't.
Speaker B:Humans are.
Speaker B:I think that might be why it's easier to say these are the steps for business.
Speaker B:And also we taught business and the steps that we can take to as we're not taught how to be a good human and how to be a fully artistic, poetic human.
Speaker B:I'd like to be a artistic, poetic human that makes loads of money.
Speaker B:There you go, there's a one.
Speaker B:And I want to say like the reason I want to.
Speaker B:And I talk about money all the time and people are.
Speaker B:But the reason I want money isn't because I want to sit there looking at my money and counting it all like that nursery.
Speaker B:That's not why I want money.
Speaker B:I want money because I think if more good hearted human beings had access to money, they would invest in other things.
Speaker B:Like we were speaking to a founder earlier today who can't get funding because she needs funding to fund her life.
Speaker B:And investors are like, no, you can only have it if you're going to put it in marketing and actually build what you're building.
Speaker B:But you can't possibly have rent and food to buy for yourself and your kids.
Speaker B:And I think that like I want more money.
Speaker B:So then I have money to invest in businesses like hers where like, yeah, here is some money to fund your living expenses for the next 12 months.
Speaker B:You can build this thing.
Speaker B:Because I don't need that money back necessarily because I have enough already.
Speaker B:So here's some.
Speaker B:But I'm not bothered about.
Speaker B:And that's why I want more money.
Speaker B:So, so I can then have that privilege to invest in places that I think are important, which isn't necessarily what the current rich people think is important.
Speaker A:Well, I think any conversation around want at some point has to.
Speaker A:Money has to come into it, doesn't it?
Speaker A:Because, you know, we started this conversation talking about Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
Speaker A:And there is an element of if you are not sufficiently resourced to meet your needs, then it's unlikely you're going to be able to be in a position meet your wants.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker A:That's just reality.
Speaker B:And we can hate that reality.
Speaker B:And there is part of me that hates it, but it is reality that is the world in which we're operating in.
Speaker B:So let's not pretend it's not there.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:And again, I think it's quite, it can be quite uncomfortable to bring money into conversations.
Speaker A:And maybe that's one of the reasons why talking about wants feels uncomfortable.
Speaker A:Because often the things that we want require a level of financial resourcing.
Speaker A:So we have to talk about money.
Speaker A:And people hate talking about money, as we know.
Speaker B:Unless you mean.
Speaker A:So that feels uncomfortable.
Speaker A:But I think one of the things that I love about the way you talk about money is I feel like you really neutralize money in terms of it being a resource.
Speaker A:I mean there's a lot of stuff, people attach a lot of stuff to money, don't they all do.
Speaker A:When you look at it from the perspective that you talk about in terms of if you are a good hearted human and you are well resourced, you can then put that money back into your community.
Speaker A:You can then use that money to support a life that allows you to continue being a good hearted human.
Speaker A:Looking at it like that, in terms of resourcing something I think can remove some of that discomfort around money entering the chat when we talk about things that we want.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of this, this is a much bigger conversation that we are going to go into on another podcast.
Speaker B:Stay tuned.
Speaker B:In fact, there might be numerous conversations about money, but for this I think it comes back to value exchange.
Speaker B:And I also think it comes back to this narrative of businesses are bad, rich people are bad, and therefore money is bad.
Speaker B:And I hear this narrative all the time, like, you can't possibly want to earn that much because then of course you're going to become a horrible person.
Speaker B:It's like, no, money does not make you a horrible person like at all.
Speaker B:Like money is literally a tool that we use.
Speaker B:Like once upon a time I might have been, I Don't know a farmer.
Speaker B:I probably wouldn't.
Speaker B:I'd have been a housewife.
Speaker B:But for my analogy, please.
Speaker B:I'm a farmer and I've grown a lot of corn.
Speaker B:And then down the way is a builder who builds things.
Speaker B:I had said, I really need a shed building for my corn.
Speaker B:Can you come and build me a shed and I'll pay you in corn?
Speaker B:I need the gun.
Speaker B:Yeah, great.
Speaker B:And that's the exchange that would have happened at some point.
Speaker B:We introduced coins because then we could put value to certain things and actually exchange coins.
Speaker B:And it was just a bit easier than saying, but how much corn is worth a shed?
Speaker B:So you can start having this universal language which still.
Speaker B:It's still an exchange.
Speaker B:It's still a value exchange of I have this and I need that, and I am willing to pay this for that.
Speaker B:And I just think working a lot of that resources with people who don't see value in things that, like, I would see value in.
Speaker B:That's where the money stays in the line.
Speaker B:Do is that, how do we get some of that back?
Speaker B:How do we deliver a product to get some of that back?
Speaker B:And then we can have value rather than saying, oh, we should just tax people, we should just do this, we should just do that.
Speaker B:I feel like we have agents, people let on we.
Speaker B:We can do ourselves.
Speaker A:Get that.
Speaker A:Me and dismantling that narrative as well, because I wonder how much of that narrative of rich people are bad, business is bad, money is bad.
Speaker A:I wonder how much of that informs a narrative of therefore wanting things is bad.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker B:I'm sure it's up there.
Speaker B:And I come back to.
Speaker B:I've never really had that.
Speaker B:And it comes back to my granddad telling me to ask for a pound for my cheek.
Speaker B:It always comes out to that lesson.
Speaker B:I think it must be like one of my deepest roots is being taught how to ask.
Speaker B:Like, he didn't say, ask me, keep asking me and I'll give it you like.
Speaker B:So it wasn't my family ever giving me what I was asking for.
Speaker B:It was me going out into the world and asking the world to give me what I wanted.
Speaker B:And yeah, I was taught that at 9, 10 years old, like, I was so little and obviously at the time had absolutely no idea that.
Speaker B:That not everyone was receiving that lesson.
Speaker B:But I think because I got it so early, I can't imagine not.
Speaker B:Not asking and not wanting.
Speaker B:But like I said, I do tend to only want things that I know I could ask for tomorrow and it might feel a Little bit uncomfortable, but it wouldn't feel like I'm jumping into the abyss.
Speaker A:And that's the foundation point, isn't it?
Speaker A:And you have that lesson.
Speaker A:And so the next step then is then passing that on to our daughters, isn't it?
Speaker A:Because as women, being able to ask for what we want and being able to ask to have our needs met and being able to ask for help, I think those are really solid generational things that need to be challenged and broken and addressed.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think part of that comes from that.
Speaker B:I look at my kids and they are.
Speaker B:They happily ask if you think of a baby.
Speaker B:They come out screaming, asking for what they need.
Speaker B:For what they need.
Speaker B:We actually.
Speaker B:So I don't think it's that we need to show them.
Speaker B:I think they already know.
Speaker B:We just have to allow them to continue to do it and not beat it out of them.
Speaker A:Not beat it out.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I get a lot of inspiration from my daughter because she really does just go for what she wants and ask for what she wants.
Speaker B:And I'm like, oh, that.
Speaker B:That's how you do it.
Speaker A:Like it's actually that easy that you just ask.
Speaker B:I say, like, I find, I find anything money related, anything career related, really easy.
Speaker B:My edge is team sports Hate Castle H. That is not nice to me.
Speaker B:And last week I got dragged to cricket kicking and screaming like a toddler.
Speaker B:I literally had every single excuse that I didn't even have trainers with me.
Speaker B:And my friend was like, it's okay, you can borrow my kids trainers.
Speaker B:Anyway, I went and played cricket and I loved it.
Speaker B:But on that field was when I realized that was the first time in my entire 37 years of life that a coach had spent any time with me to teach me how to play a sport.
Speaker B:I'd always been othered like, oh, you're the slow kid or whatever.
Speaker B:Like you're not sporty.
Speaker A:You're too sure.
Speaker B:Whatever else.
Speaker B:Like, I was never picked.
Speaker B:PE teachers never looked twice at me.
Speaker B:I was the nerd always in maths.
Speaker B:So I never really felt part of a team.
Speaker B:And then that same friend text me this week and told me to speak to my other friend and get my ass to football.
Speaker B:She actually put get your ass to footy.
Speaker B:And next Thursday I will be going to football training with my friend.
Speaker B:And that even saying out loud feels so stretchy.
Speaker B:But what I want is I want to be part of a team that isn't related to money and it isn't related to business.
Speaker B:This and it's just being part of a Team for being part of a team.
Speaker B:Like, I want that and I'm gonna go and do that next week.
Speaker B:And I am absolutely petrified because it really like, I honestly, I can't tell you how scared I am about that.
Speaker B:Like, and I have to keep talking about it every day, otherwise I'm not gonna go next week.
Speaker B:Like, that's how stretchy this thing is.
Speaker B:And like all my mates, like, what?
Speaker B:It's so easy.
Speaker B:Like you just literally turn up to be around a lot of other middle aged women kicking a ball around the field.
Speaker B:I was like, you don't get it.
Speaker B:You don't get it.
Speaker B:This, this is huge.
Speaker B:This is like you walking into a boardroom with 250 people and you standing up and doing a presentation.
Speaker B:I could do that with my eyes shut, putting some trains on and getting to that football pitch next week.
Speaker B:I feel sick.
Speaker A:That's a really beautiful stretch.
Speaker A:You want?
Speaker A:You're accountable now.
Speaker A:You've told me.
Speaker A:I'm going to text you on Thursday.
Speaker A:I'm going to be like, have you got your trainers on?
Speaker B:Let's go.
Speaker B:My best mate was like, it's advisable to wear shin pads.
Speaker B:She was like, I don't wear shin pads anymore for training, but it's advisable for you to.
Speaker B:I was like, I'm not going in a football game.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker A:Report back on the sporting journey.
Speaker A:We can follow you.
Speaker B:Twitcher, cricket player, football fanatic.
Speaker A:Who are you?
Speaker B:Honestly, I have no idea what's going on.
Speaker B:Someone said to me, in fact it was marketing.
Speaker B:So we have like a marketing agency that helps us build our business.
Speaker B:And I was telling them, they're like, because Laura, when I look at you and I get on calls with you, the first thing I think is this woman has so much time on her hands, she needs some more hobbies.
Speaker A:That's such a good point.
Speaker B:Really good point.
Speaker B:But we're doing it.
Speaker A:I need to be more busy if anything.
Speaker B:I just need a whole new team to be involved in.
Speaker B:So, yeah, new football player.
Speaker A:And there's a want.
Speaker B:Okay, on that note, but is it money related?
Speaker A:Should we wrap up till next time?
Speaker B:Yeah, let's.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:This was fun.
Speaker B:It was so fun.
Speaker B:I'm so glad to be back from our travels on here and having these conversations again.
Speaker B:And we have some really good conversations lined up.
Speaker B:We have some guests that are going to be coming in and then we're going to do a full series on money in the future.
Speaker B:So yeah, we're, we're dead excited.
Speaker A:Okay, till next time.
Speaker B:Hello, everyone.
Speaker A:I'm Laura.
Speaker A:And I'm Claire.
Speaker B:And this is with both hands.
